Radical sac 2.2 and scope

Fluxpod · Post by **Fluxpod** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:23 pm

Anyone is using this controller with scope?
I ask because i really dig it for the big mixer but actually a few more templates for the minimoog or any other newer synths+newer mixers would totally rock my socks off.
I offcourse can set it to active instead of the prebuild pulsar mode and do midi learn but hey may if more people use it and the developers would connect to radical again there could be some resources opening.

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:52 pm

Olive from DAS has a 2.2, for what I am not sure.

But I am sure he didn't buy it just to raise and lower volumes in some VST mixer.

I'd like to think that he and Eric are creating something special for Scope.

Fluxpod · Post by **Fluxpod** » Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:58 pm

Oh that would rock!! I just came to the topic because it fell on my big toe today haha.
A few more templates would be really niiiice!

sonolive · Post by **sonolive** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:50 am

hi

Olive from DAS has a 2.2, for what I am not sure.

yes, jimmy and once again thx for all ...

in fact i have a SAC2K, which is the old version of the SAC 2.2 but quite the same ... same functions, and i think, same templates ...

i can say that it is a very good product ... well made, well designed, very good component ... nothing to say, except that it doesn't work via USB, i

need a "special" USB wire, that i am still waiting for, from RADIKAL ...

Peharps jimmy you got it ???

anyway it works fine via standard midi pots, in out thru ...

i also own a behringer BCF 2000 and let's say that the SAC is much much better looking than the BCF !!!

the BCF looks quite "cheap" in my studio while the SAC is very "high class"

But i have to say that from a developper point of view, the BCF is much better ... in fact it IS programmable, the SAC is not !!! No Flash memory, no

way to build a user preset ... no user preset !!! the only templates avaible are stored in the ROM and you can not have acces to any features, except

some very simple ones such as midi channels and few settings for motorised faders , leds blinking ...

so you have choice between few "modes" Standrd Midi, Logic audio, Logic control, Mackie control, Protool, ... and PULSAR ...

the fact is that when you need to use it as a controller for NUENDO (i only tried this one ...) it is fantastic , in few modes, Active or Mackie ... it

works perfect ... and the size of the board, the motorised faders, the LCD ... every thing is ok, much better than the BFC ... you also have very

explicit, transport section, easy to use.Some free assignable buttons ... for vsti, mixers ... + a very good looking stuff, that can take place in a

studio .

About the different "midi" modes :

- The "standard midi" one seemes to be the best and most helpfull for developpement with scope ... in this mode, each button, rotary or fader has got a

midicc or midi note value , that let you customize a plug with lots of possibilities, as there are lots of buttons, faders, encoders (multiply bu two

with the shift button) it makes it very versatile ... except the fact that they are not programable !!! and as far as i understood after having phoned

them (RADIKAL), first they no more support it ... and they don't seem to be ok to send the tools to reprogram the eeprom ...

- the "pulsar" mode is very restrictive ... it give you some midi cc but not all the buttons and encoders have one ... very strange indeed, but it was

build to remote a Big Mixer i think, 8 faders, 8 on/off, + auxs ... not enough to try and develop a "good" plug under scope ...

- the other modes (mackie control, logic control, protools ...) are not in midi cc but in these protocols that can anyway be translated in midi infos

...

So , even if the BFC is much less "good looking", it is a good Controller ... and personally , i don't find anything bad in this hardware, i use it

since few years and motor faders, and encoders still work perfectly ... even if they are smoother with SAC .

The big advantage here for the BFC is that it is fully programable ... each, button, fader or encoder can be totally reprogrammed ... in anything you

want ... midi cc (with adjustable range) or note on / of, with one or other velocity value, buttons can be programmed from On/off to toggle, or push

buttons ... a dream for programer ...

Our MODULAR MIXER (4live

) is already controlled by the BFC ... and it is very easy to MIDI BULK / DUMP any BFC in order to make it compatible ...
Not exactly the same for the SAC ... You have to develop with THEIR modes ...

so, as jimmy say, things will be dev ... one day ... stay tuned ...

cheers
olive

Fluxpod · Post by **Fluxpod** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:31 am

Hey thx for answering.About that special usb cable...i use it with a Standart usb cable but i do have some problems with the motorfaders.I can move em FROM the cubase mixer just fine BUT if i move the faders on the sac it has 0 effect on the
faders in cubase,every rotary encoder + all buttons work in both ways tho.Could that be cable related?
I agree that it is build like a frikkin tank and the active mode is good for the creamware stuff...i wish the company wouldnt be so hard on letting development tools go out to people who want to work with em/for em.
+ It looks so damn good^__^.

moxi · Post by **moxi** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:35 am

(mackie control, logic control, protools ...) are not in midi cc but in these protocols that can anyway be translated in midi infos

most (if not all) of the mackie buton/knobs send standard midi data, some relative, other absolute, even the "functions" button send midi note, and fader pitchbend .it's on the host side that a special processing is done when datas are received (put the behringer in mackie mode then monitor directly in sfp, you will see there is no mysterious protocol here, what is called protocol here is just the way the host convert datas to trigg special functions and how the mackie itself convert back midi datas to display caracters on lcd)

even the feedback is done in MIDI, with cc or sysex, to ask the mackie to display ASCII string (harder to deal with but not impossible).

http://home.comcast.net/~robbowers11/MCMap.htm
http://www.hektra.nl/info/asci.html

sonolive · Post by **sonolive** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:51 am

most (if not all) of the mackie buton/knobs send standard midi data, some relative, other absolute, even the "functions" button send midi note, and fader pitchbend .it's on the host side that a special processing is done when datas are received (put the behringer in mackie mode then monitor directly in sfp, you will see there is no mysterious protocol here, what is called protocol here is just the way the host convert datas to trigg special functions and how the mackie itself convert back midi datas to display caracters on lcd)

yep, for sure, i know these "tables" and any way it is easy to translate with a tool like MIDI OX ...

any way, send a sysex to SAC from scope is much more harder !!! in fact, these caracters are coded on multiple sysex lines ... not only a simple line like "standard midi " ... and if you want to send a "a" to the second line of the second display of the first controller, you have to include many lines in your "code " ...

from scope it is a real pain !

scope does not support sysex ... but for sure it is possible to tranlate any mackie code to "midi" or at least something understandable for a midi "system " ...

even the feedback is done in MIDI, with cc or sysex

yep, and even more ... not necessarily with the same code as for the "send" ...

cheers
olive

Neutron · Post by **Neutron** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:08 am

That looks cool, i just have the behinger BCR and BCF, but i have something else made by RADIKAL

Fluxpod · Post by **Fluxpod** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:14 am

Neutron wrote:That looks cool, i just have the behinger BCR and BCF, but i have something else made by RADIKAL

Ohhh you have "that" synth?? Tell me about it plz!!!

moxi · Post by **moxi** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:05 pm

any way, send a sysex to SAC from scope is much more harder !!! in fact, these caracters are coded on multiple sysex lines ... not only a simple line like "standard midi " ... and if you want to send a "a" to the second line of the second display of the first controller, you have to include many lines in your "code " ...

I agree, from my side that stay obscur, I just make appear the scope device param. name on the maki LCD creating little vsti with mirrored name, then I let cubase do the job..but you can do the same then monitor the host output, you will get easily the string you need.
maybe you can take some inspiration (especially for the handling of LCDs) in the work of T. Klose, the creator of the midibox, the firmware for the LC emulation is available on Ucapps.de. of course it's not the same hardware but at least you will see how are computed inputed events

from scope it is a real pain !

updating display it's not a time critical time most of the time, maybe the job could be done outside sfp, if your midi controler support two midi in with merging (yes , my midibox mackie can do that

)

but as I'm still trying to make the sfp mixer suitable for automation in cubase (with automation, not midi tracks) I understand that it's maybe not really funny to spend a lot of effort to deal with an inappropriate app (It needed me about five module in modular just to transforme a note message into cc using SFP

), when beside you can just copy/paste some basic code in the firmware source so the hardware do the trick you need..

so maybe you can dev a nice hardware too

, it's the best way to do a full integration hardware/soft : when the same one do the two...let say that interfacing with pic or atmel is fastidious when you start from nothing, but not impossible, and there is already a lot of info on the web about that.

moxi · Post by **moxi** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:12 pm

any way, send a sysex to SAC from scope is much more harder !!! in fact, these caracters are coded on multiple sysex lines ... not only a simple line like "standard midi " ... and if you want to send a "a" to the second line of the second display of the first controller, you have to include many lines in your "code " ...

I agree, from my side that stay obscur, I just make appear the scope device param. name on the maki LCD creating little vsti with mirrored name, then I let cubase do the job..but you can do the same then monitor the host output, you will get easily the string you need.
maybe you can take some inspiration (especially for the handling of LCDs) in the work of T. Klose, the creator of the midibox, the firmware for the LC emulation is available on Ucapps.de. of course it's not the same hardware but at least you will see how are computed inputed events

from scope it is a real pain !

updating display it's not time critical most of the time, maybe the job could be done outside sfp, if your midi controler support two midi in with merging (yes , my midibox mackie can do that

)

so maybe you can dev a nice hardware too

, it's the best way to do a full integration hardware/soft : when the same one do the two...

Fluxpod · Post by **Fluxpod** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:05 pm

Ok just as an advice! Forget about that "special usb cable" i can not believe they even state it on the website ..all you have to do it enabling virtual control in the driver in the device manageer! It is a hoax that caused me headaches..and hey why need a "special cable" when a standart one works....

Marketing much me guesses...

Neutron · Post by **Neutron** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:58 pm

Fluxpod wrote:
Neutron wrote:That looks cool, i just have the behinger BCR and BCF, but i have something else made by RADIKAL
Ohhh you have "that" synth?? Tell me about it plz!!!

im going to make a little review of it later. i really like it
you can get lost in it just like the old days with hardware. its really fun.

Tau · Post by **Tau** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:05 pm

Hi!

thought I'd try my luck here with you guys: I always used my SAC2k in mackie mode with live or cubase. It's great. But now I wanted to control the channels of wolf's mixer without touching the settings on the sequencer, of course!

Using the SacRoute app, i connect the SAC via USB to the seq DAW, and via MIDI to the Scope DAW. Independentely, they work, but if I "virtualize" the driver in its properties, therefore enabling the SAC to select and switch between different applications, I cannot move the faders on screen anymore, only receive movements.

If i unvirtualize the driver, all works well, but I cannot control wolf's mixer and live seperately (faders move in both)

Any help will be appreciated. particularly if you could direct me to any source of information on how to operate this machine: there are so many possibilities mentioned in the manual, but only in brief, I have a lot of trouble finding out how to work this thing... I feel that it could do much more.

Anyway, thanks for the information shared already, and thanks in advance or any news!

much Peace,

T

Tau · Post by **Tau** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:40 am

A little *bump* for this thread

For instance, when I power up my SAC 2k, it shows on the LCD that the firmware is version 3.05! Bot, on radikal's website, the latest one available is 3.04 (drivers) and 3.03 (firmware).

How did this 3.05 firmware get into the machine?

I have the original USB cable, but it won't work virtualized... It seems that it's the oppoesite situation that the one above (where "virtualizing" enables the use of a standard cable)... Drivers are v.3.04

and BTW, it doesn't even work with a regular USB cable...

Been losing my head over this, can anybody help?

T

Tau · Post by **Tau** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:45 am

OK OK, I seem to have got it...

No idea how, but after the nth install and cable swapping.......

I virtualized the MIDI drivers, and now,

- I start Ableton, and it recognizes the SAC as Mackie
- then I start SacRoute, and select SAC's MIDI in and out ports (disabled in Live) which are connected to Scope Daw's Midi ports routed to Wolf's mixer
- then, pressing "system" on the SAC shows a list of active software, in this case Live 7 in slot 1 and SacRoute in slot 6.
- now, I can choose slot 1 and control the DAW's audio tracks and transport, OR switch to slot 6 and control Scope's inputs (the hardware synths and fx), just like a hardware mixer, without affecting the settings in Live.

Which is what I wanted!

Not sure if it'll work later in the evening, but right now, it's just fine.

And it appears that the SAC will be able to control even more programs at the same time. One fabulous usage would be to use the jog and transport on VDAT, but I'm not sure it's possible (maybe in next SCP)

I have traded my big mixer for a creamware A16U, as many of you have done with that one or another AD converter, but that meant losing tactile control over the studio. You could mo nitor in the DAW, but that meant putting up with ASIO latency. But with this nice controller and wolf's mixer, I just load up a template project and voila, all hardware in is my hands, no mouse, and no need to even start the sequencer.

Please forgive my excitement, but this is reeeally old skool. I mean, I actually considered buying a mixer all over again just to be able to jam, but this is pretty close to that. And from what I understand, you can configure pretty much any device to be controlled by the SAC. Wolf's Mackie emu seems to be pretty solid, I had tried it before in standalone mode (just controlling the mixer, and not the sequencer). It's a shame that it takes up more than half of my 36 DSPs, but that will be fixed soon. Still, I believe that the DSP hit could be lowered with a little tweaking of the MIDI parameters and offloading unused channels. Must study.

Even though I am quite happy using SpaceF's FP and MB mixers (killer combination for stem-mixing, maybe I'll try configuring those to use with SAC), this is a perfect way to start a jamming / recording session with real instruments in Scope. And it'll be a lot easier to blend the recorded sounds with the live players. Great stuff!

T

sonolive · Post by **sonolive** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:36 am

hi tau,

it is a great stuff !!!

unfortunately with some limits!

i am ATM using it a lot in studio as a controller for Nuendo ! and i must admit it is amazing !

i route it via scope midi (to midi seq dest and from midi seq source ) and it works perfectly .

unfortunately as i alredy told it doesn't work in USB here !!! only standadr midi cables.

i have ordered the original midi cable at radikal since months ... but still nothing , i think that they are out of support on this product .

with nuendo, i do not use mackie control, i use the "standard mode" (sorry i don't remember the exact name as it now recognises it automatically each time i launch nuendo)

i have mixed a whole disc 2 weeks ago and i was very very happy with the controller ! since more than ten years i was so used with "mouse mixing" that i didn't think i would have keep it but after few experiences, i must admit that it would be now difficult to work without it !

very intuitive, transport, faders, pans, and even eq, inserts ... everything work perfectly ... hat off !!!

i made today this afternoon 4 vocal recordings at studio and even in recording it is amazing ...

here are my experiences ...
here is my conclusion ... Kool stuff

cheers
olive

Tau · Post by **Tau** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:48 pm

Hi Olive! Thanks for your words!

it really is great! I was fortunate enough to get the original cable with the unit from ebay - and it just won't work with any other of these USB cables that I have, no matter how I set it up in the control panel - no cable, no SAC...

Cubase (and Nuendo too, I guess) have direct support for the SAC, so standard mode is OK. I tried it like that as well, but found it easier to work in mackie emulation mode. For Live, it's a breeze, as you can really get inside the plugins and tweak away at your content, and in Cubase too, you can access EQs, inserts, sends, everything.

I believe that the virtual drivers are only available when you use it via USB, but there should still be some bonuses in MIDI mode, like loading separate editors on the instrument slots. But the manual I have is really "light", and things just don't make enough sense to figure out how to use them.

And contacting Radikal seems to be a waste of time. Good thing we got Z!

I believe, though, that these special USB cables might be available from other manufacturers. The one I have is actually branded by Radikal, but although it looks like an ordinary cable, it also has some other info printed that might help you find a replacement. Here's what it says:

"Radikal Technologies SAC 2K USB cable 2.0 revision 26AWG/1P and 20AWG/2C E179993 (UL) Type CM 75ºC SHIN AN -C- "

After getting this to work with more than one app at a time, I can only reccomend its USB connection. I really hope one that can still find a replacement for the cable, otherwise it'll be a sad future for the SAC. Heck, I'd buy an extra one if I had the chance!

Once again, many thanks,

T