Is it the End of Creamware?

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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interloper
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Post by interloper »

On 2003-12-25 21:10, Eric Dahlberg wrote:
True, we're already at a point where SFP/XTC & our OS's are at their bests, so why change? It's not like my Oasys & Core32 cards that force me to keep a damn 98 box for them.
That's exactly the point worth noting. If SFP was ailing in some fashion, it would be a different story.

The Oasys is a great example. SFP is light years ahead as far a feature set and maturity.

I just ask people to allow the company to issue an official statements whenever possible. No matter what is written on a public site, only CreamWare can truly characterize the impact of any of this.

This has also been going on for some time, making it safe to assume that several courses of action have been on the discussion table.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: interloper on 2003-12-26 01:59 ]</font>
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Sorry, but I have to say that I don´t like all those speculations in topics like this.

And more than that, I see that you do the absolute wrong thing at the wrong time.

With any speculation about a end of Creamware on a public site like Z you destroy the future of CW more and more.

When somebody comes in and read all this, he maybe decides to spent his money not in CW products anymore.

Sorry but that sucks.
doctorgrow
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Post by doctorgrow »

Well you are right talking aout rumours in a forum like these will frighten new users of buying a Pulsar. But on the other hand you can see that lots of people depend so much on the cw stuff an want to work with it till its gone. Well if they go down I buy so much Pulsars that I can work with them the next 30 years. Which software can you start in the morning and shut down in the evening without any probs.....you're right it's SFP!!!

Pulsar can't die because it's in our hearts!!!
Kenf
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Post by Kenf »

Hi
CW need to say something....
I want to buy an A16 and another pulsar but feel a little unsure what to do. I have a much cheaper route I can take but would love to support CW but there a few 'niggles' in SFP that stop me, especially if no more updates.
I have my fingers crossed for CW.
Regards
Kenf
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

Kenf, from the technical viewpoint I don't see any reason not to invest in an A16 ultra or another Pulsar.
The A16 is usable in any Adat environement and (as already mentioned) SFP is usable for years even without any changes.

Even if you'd use it for nothing but a digital IO patchbay it's worth the money as those are usually more expensive and not that easy to handle.
I've spent about 1k bucks on devices and have exploited at best 10% of the features.

There is no need to worry - even if the company changes due to economic reasons.
It is very unlikely that the products disappear, but I'd prefer by all means that the CW team continues developement instead of one of the big players.
Something like that needs challenge and inspirations and that is usually much better in a small, but powerful team.
I'm supporting a publishing company of only a dozen employes, yet they are #1 in their market segment. Well, to be exact they are #2 in overall figures, but those of the leading company are due a different (much broader) product range achieved by several hundred persons.

While I agree with Chris about the general consequences of such discussions, the news is published as part of a legal procedure and anyone on the net will google it anyway.

So it may be better to put it in a reasonable context to regain confidence.
The Z community isn't a bunch of sheeps following any prejudiced trends. There is a variety of opinions here and even the pessimistic ones are understandable.

Of course this will not prevent anyone from waiting if he (or she) can get the stuff for bargain, which I consider the biggest problem in this situation. But that's the way people are, specially today where everyone is after the best offer.

confident though, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2003-12-26 12:10 ]</font>
Kenf
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Post by Kenf »

Hi astroman
I take your point but I still feel un easy about spending so much money, on something that may not be supported soon? What happens to any warrenty?
I know I am not going to be left with a 'lemon' I highly rate CW stuff. I already have a Luna and I/O box and a Pulsar and all of Zargs Synths and much more...
I will decide over the next few days what to do.
Regards
Kenf
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

hi Kenf,

it is almost unlikely - nothing on earth is riskfree though :wink: that the current products aren't supported anymore - whatever happens.
Noone will put that stuff into a trashcan or dig a big whole to make it vanish.

regarding warranty it's pretty easy: electronic equipment either fails within a couple of weeks or lasts forever - if not treated too bad.
There have been very few hardware failure reported here. If something was wrong it was usually a cable or a connector. Again, if treated right that's not a very likely thing to happen.

Nevertheless I don't want to talk you into an over-rushed decision. Those facts (from experience) are intended to keep focus on what's reasonable.
I'm doing tech support for nearly 20 years and have experienced the 'buyout hysteria' with Apple a couple of times, but stock value increased and increased :grin:
It always pays off to keep your mind patiently.

cheers, Tom
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John Cooper
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Post by John Cooper »

On 2003-12-25 05:21, Eric Dahlberg wrote:
OK, this is probably an extremely silly question but are you guys sure that 09.12.2003 really refers to September 12 & not December 9?
Not silly at all-- I think you're right. I believe 09.12.203 does in fact refer to December 9, in a German legal document. My apologies for my earlier "september 12" statement!

Unfortunately, I assume that the officers of CW are (at least temporarily) not allowed to say anything. Frustrating situation indeed!

Patience my friends,
-John
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Nestor
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Post by Nestor »

I have to say that I dislike to a certain extent this conversation guys, let me explain you why:

Most of us are far from marketing and specialised business things, and well… of course it is nice to give your opinion about anything you like, but speculation is not always good, except when it comes from expert statistics made by knowledgeable people in the area, or by a serious observation of the market. But I can see there are several answer which seems to have been written immediately after, without any other information.

No problem if you want to speculate, why not, it’s fine and freedom of expression is a must, but please do it with due respect. If Creamware is truly going through this difficulty, DON’T FORGET there are real people behind. Don’t forget they are “surely” reading what you are writing here as well. Try not to talk about people you don’t know in a too personal way, as if they were machines without feelings. I don’t like to hear appreciations that have no possible way to be assured, subjective and very personal speculations. I don’t like to treat Creamware Tim as if they were a bunch of incompetent people. If they have managed to do “such” a magnificent group products I’m proud to own, is because they are capable, intelligent people; I feel we are talking about them as if they were children... You are judging their moves without getting to know what they are doing, why, what for, what they have in their “hat” for next year, which is their state of mind as a company, how much they really earn for a living, how comfortable or uncomfortable is their job at the moment, which is the pressure they are getting economically speaking, etc. Anyway, if I were to know these things, why should I post it here, without permission? Would you like for me to make a report of your personal life here, in the Z, without permission? I don’t think so. Please, don’t be speaking about their personal lives, as if we were a bunch of bad paparachi journalists, they may easily feel uncomfortable. As you can see, I’m not referring to it with bad words, or angry, please, understand I’m just being reasonable. :smile:

Let not be so egoist about what we can get or not from Creamware, they also need “your” support as a relatively new company and as “people” they are behind the logo! Think a bit about them too, not just you loosing them but them loosing you!

I don’t like either you comparing many other platforms against Creamware, as a future option if the company dies… it is a bit crude to me, unless you were talking privately of course. Again, don’t forget they are reading this…

I can‘t speak about what they do or don’t do, and if I new cos I don’t know. But there is something which is very simple to me, and I’m absolutely sure about: they are a small company, and they work extremely hard to keep things going… it must be disappointing for them to read we are so cold about their efforts.
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

yes.
doctorgrow
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Post by doctorgrow »

I agree with you, that they are working hard on keepingtheir Company alive. All I (or we) can do is buying new soft/hardware. As soon as I have the money you can see me buying a new Pulsar with Mix'n'Master.
That's all I can do.....and I will.

doctorgrow
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valis
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Post by valis »

I still hope to see SFP4 eventually and newer cards using higher performing chips and better synths and more effects.........

I also remember when I had a card that would only run under win98 (I'm an NT person due to 3d/graphics/video) and not on my dual cpu's (again 3d) and when it DID finally work there were still many bugs. Now the most glaring bugs I can think of are ModIII (which I can work around outside of the odd crash on loading a new shell) and the phase issues (which I can now correct.) After seeing the platform come so far it would be a pity for it to stop here. If that is the case however, the card will still work fine in my main machine for a few years to come, and I'm sure I'll keep a winXp box around for many many years just to have access to some of what I can do here. My old hardware synths lying here certainly are no less useful for not supporting the vsti format or newer better samplerates. People even seem to still like the occasional use of 8 & 12 bit samplers in hardware format =]
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braincell
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Post by braincell »

No matter what you guys say, CW is not in a good situation. I can continue to use my cards for years to come but the only thing that will save CW is if they drop their ridiculously high software prices so the masses will buy their products.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

leading edge technology is never intended for 'the masses' :wink:
about any German hightech company that tried to go that way went broke. Quasimidi, ELSA, Miro come to my mind...

cheers, Tom
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ChrisWerner
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Post by ChrisWerner »

Don´t paint the devil on the wall Tom.
:grin:
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

:wink: I don't think that CW has ever tried to mass market their stuff, but the companies above did exactly that.
It's a completely different cup of tea where business rules apply that most of us (me included) are unaware of.

With all respect, if the owners of CW would be interested in something like that, they had sold out the company long ago.

I know how it feels when your stuff outperforms financially superior companies - I once made the mistake not to sellout myself :lol:

They do have a vision at CW (imho), and take quite a risk for that.
Like my favourite quote from a surgeon: 'life is a dangerous state - it always ends deadly... :grin:

optimistic, Tom
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Post by King of Snake »

On 2003-12-28 21:40, braincell wrote:
No matter what you guys say, CW is not in a good situation. I can continue to use my cards for years to come but the only thing that will save CW is if they drop their ridiculously high software prices so the masses will buy their products.
Their software prices are not ridiculously high. This is really total BS. They are only slightly higher than the top-of-the-line VST offerings (and usually much better in quality) and still waaay below anything of comparable quality in hardware.
If anything has to come down in price it's the hardware, but even that isn't actually that expensive once you consider the possibilities and the alternatives. There's also some pretty good deals on hardware/software bundles from time to time.

And no, CW products are not and never will be "for the masses". And since when does a product need to appeal to the masses to be succesful? There are many succesful professional products that will never appeal to the masses.

Sorry but you are talking about this as if you have a clue what's going on inside CW, while in fact none of us do. If this was really the "only way" for CW to survive don't you think they would know it? Don't you think they have advisors who are maybe slightly better informed about CW's business and economics in general than you?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2003-12-29 08:59 ]</font>
Immanuel
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Post by Immanuel »

As long as I remember, there have been people, who demand big Mercedes cars for the price og a Trabant (metaphorically speaking). I am glad those same people are not doing medicine. "Why the FUC* should we pay 100€ per kg. of this rare mineral, when we can get ordinary sand for 1€ per kg. - it's all stone anyway?" oh-oh-oh-oooooh :sad:

I sometimes think of the third part developers. If they make a device, wich is better than a CW device, they will usually sell it for less than a CW device. I still BELIEVE the CW device sells bigger quantities - because it is a common human way of thinking, that the CW device costing 250€ - 199 if on sale - is better than the Celmo costing only 60€ or 80€. But is it?
Information for new readers: A forum member named Braincell is known for spreading lies and malicious information without even knowing the basics of, what he is talking about. If noone responds to him, it is because he is ignored.
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astroman
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Post by astroman »

I fully agree with King of Snake and Immanuel :smile:

And since we're at it:
didn't Stephen Hummel once offer his Wavelength devices for a ridiculuous 20 bucks each ?

Without protection whatsoever and even with payment due at one's own decision - and with a comfortable way (via ShareIt) to pay from foreign countries without mad bank transfer fees.
He was totally disappointed by the number of downloads in comparison to actual registrations.

Third party stuff for SFP rules and there is absolutely no chance for me to buy any hardware synth module for the $1k spent on SFP devices with comparable features.
Let alone that I have a digital mixer plus fx unit for free - or vice versa :grin:

cheers, Tom
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Post by thermos »

i agree that cw plugs are not to expencive. but maybe they could offer some cut down versions (like no 96k support etc.)or student discount.

happy newyear, best wishes for the year to come. lets hope cw makes it thru next year aswell.
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