Is it the End of Creamware?

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:29 pm

I agree with dehuszar et al. Also, moving to another location and reducing staff is called cost reduction, and should be welcomed by all of us. Many companies do that, specially in these times.

Frankly, if they did not do anything like that, I'd really be concerned.

- Don't believe the negative hype...

I'd like to add, does the name Alesis ring a bell? Looks like their site is still up, and guess what, they are still in business.

[ This Message was edited by: interloper on 2003-12-24 16:43 ]

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:18 pm

well, all this negative publicity has one pro: some people sell their old CW cards for really low prices on the 2nd hand market.
I was just checking a dutch 2nd hand site (marktplaats.nl for the dutchies here

) and people are selling Pulsar I's for 100 Euro! And another one for 180,- Euro!

Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 7:22 pm

here's my 2 cents, some cw fanatics may disagree. IMO, unless they restructure their business practices or setup business partnerships with other companies i dont see creamware surviving, they might scrape though by downsizing but that means less development, less support, longer delays, reduced resources etc etc, in the end we the customers lose. CW simply cant do it themselves anymore, times have changed.

here's a couple reasons why (imo)..

1. Lack of market exposure - many people still dont know who or what cw do/provide. Lots of people still think CW are bankrupt. No one is going to buy products if they think CW is going down...

2. bloated prices on sw and hw - prices havent changed much over the years...Pricing needs to be restructured. It's better to sell a product at 99 USD and have 100 customers than to sell at 300 USD and have only a dozen or so customers. Cheaper prices means more customers, more exposure, more money (it's common sense, now CW listen..). I'm sorry to say but current prices are ridiculous. It's not affordable to the majority of people.

3. lack of customer service - massive delays in replies from cw staff (for tech support and general enquires), or no replies. The excuse of staff going on holidays/leave/sick/XMAS period is no longer valid (the business is running right? at least one staff member should be working right?). Ignore or make customers (existing or potential) wait and you can kiss their money good bye (basic business/retail 101).

The reason why cw has to survive is because they provide quality and innovative products. But CW need to focus more on the fundamentals of the business - ie. marketing, customer service, listening to customers needs etc. No point in having a great product if no one knows about it or needs it. NOAH aint gonna save CW, fixing their core business practices will.

i think CW have had their head focused in the microchips and circuits too long...it's time to wake up...

Perhaps a company takeover would be good, new management, new business practices and new ideas. Out with the old and in with the new...

How did this whole thing start anyway? CW management incompetency? or did they invest in something over their head?

I think everyone is worried/frustrated/pissed off at the current situation. We want answers CW!

[ This Message was edited by: vien on 2003-12-24 19:25 ]

Neutron · Post by **Neutron** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:11 pm

by "a company takeover" i hope you mean

"A company takover by a company other than Gibson"

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:50 pm

Which Creamware products are overpriced?

I don't get it - from what I can tell, Creamware's prices are on track with the market. For example, a good software syth or effect sells for just as much or more than what Creamware asks for their plugins.

Also, the DSP cards are no more expensive than any other quality audio card. For example, RME cards are not much less than a Pulsar card and you don't get the great software functionality/flexibility/features that you get with a Creamware card. Other DSP cards (Powercore and UAD-1) are also comparable in price to a Pulsar card, and they do not come with the audio in/out capabilities.

I am not sure it would make sense for Creamware to lower their normal prices below what is typical in the market. Of course, it would be nice for all of us who would like to own every plugin they sell and max out the DSP processing. Really, they would need to do a very carefull analysis of truely how many more customers a lower price would bring to find the optimal price vs. quantity ratio.

Personally, I think there current strategy to stir up sales by offering specials is pretty smart (e.g., the X-mas offers).

The bottom line is, considering the functionality and software development that is behind SFP, Creamware cards are at least in line with the market - if not a bargain already.

Although, I do agree on the other points (better market exposure, much better customer relations, etc.).

[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2003-12-24 20:52 ]

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:50 pm

I think everyone appreciates your candor, but some points are open to debate.

On 2003-12-24 19:22, vien wrote:
here's my 2 cents, some cw fanatics may disagree. IMO, unless they restructure their business practices or setup business partnerships with other companies i dont see creamware surviving, they might scrape though by downsizing but that means less development, less support, longer delays, reduced resources etc etc, in the end we the customers lose. CW simply cant do it themselves anymore, times have changed.

Restructuring, alliances, or partnerships are all options that could be exercised at any point in time. Third party support has been thin, but of high quality. Zarg, spacef, SPL, Sonic Timeworks, Wavelength, Orbitone, and lately, Adern, to name a few (but not all). More development in this arena would clearly have a positive effect.

Also, look at the product line today. Much development has already taken place for the software and the physical DSP boards themselves, that does not need to be revisited in much detail. A mature foundation exists today, which a smaller team of hardware and software people can easily build on and support.

This means changes within the organization, but from having done my own penance in the corporate business world for nearly six years, I find that this is not uncommon at all in a post 9-11 economy. I'd say that within the last 2 years, nearly 80% or more companies exercised downsizing, layoffs, and/or restructuring, especially in the tech sector.

1. Lack of market exposure - many people still dont know who or what cw do/provide. Lots of people still think CW are bankrupt. No one is going to buy products if they think CW is going down...

More market exposure is key in this concern. Some markets appear saturated with CW products, while others reflect an astounding potential for development. Only time will really answer this issue. About the status of the company, the next two quarters are going to be indicative on what happens. Also, sales might taper off for a time, but companies like Alesis stayed afloat after insolvency, so why can't CW?

2. bloated prices on sw and hw - prices havent changed much over the years...Pricing needs to be restructured. It's better to sell a product at 99 USD and have 100 customers than to sell at 300 USD and have only a dozen or so customers. Cheaper prices means more customers, more exposure, more money (it's common sense, now CW listen..). I'm sorry to say but current prices are ridiculous. It's not affordable to the majority of people.

Compared to the other products that are somewhat similar in the DSP class, the prices are not really out of range. I don't think that due to insolvency that prices should be dropped significantly. That might be counterproductive. More sales and discount packages, and promotions could prove beneficial, though.

3. lack of customer service - massive delays in replies from cw staff (for tech support and general enquires), or no replies. The excuse of staff going on holidays/leave/sick/XMAS period is no longer valid (the business is running right? at least one staff member should be working right?). Ignore or make customers (existing or potential) wait and you can kiss their money good bye (basic business/retail 101).

Granted, one staff member could be working, but I don't know if I would want the guy to post on forums or reply to inquiries with his musings on the company's future...

The reason why cw has to survive is because they provide quality and innovative products. But CW need to focus more on the fundamentals of the business - ie. marketing, customer service, listening to customers needs etc. No point in having a great product if no one knows about it or needs it. NOAH aint gonna save CW, fixing their core business practices will.

Listening to customers needs...hmmm, they've been doing that. I remember many, many issues ago, when the hot one was the transferability of plugins to other boards. It took some time, but they made it happen. There have been many issues like that which were addressed. But almost every company could benefit from a new energetic marketing campaign.

How did this whole thing start anyway? CW management incompetency? or did they invest in something over their head?

I think everyone is worried/frustrated/pissed off at the current situation. We want answers CW!

It's called Research & Development and it costs a company a fortune. If you don't spend the money on it, your doomed, because your product won't be able to stand on it's own and distinguish itself. Then throw in some post 9-11 market reactions and every tech company in the world catches a cold.

I'm confident that some form of information will be offered, but no one should expect a knee-jerk, reactionary statement to inquiries on a public forum.

I've got three boards in my PC. You might argue that makes me biased in my views. But at about 4:00 AM when I'm working and break out the Minimax, the Pro-One, or Vinco, I remember every time why I made this investment. Come hell or high water, the boards will stay in my box.

[ This Message was edited by: interloper on 2003-12-25 17:44 ]

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 8:59 pm

The U.S. should be a key market for Creamware to focus on. While they have some exposure - I believe there is huge potential for growth.

Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:14 pm

re: overpriced plugins argument geared more towards the older stuff. The prices on devices like minimax and pro-1 are justified to a certain extent. The old stuff like SB404 or vectron havent changed prices over the yrs that much? So in 3-5yrs time will CW sell their plugins (eg. minimax) at the same price while the 'native' guys have developed comparative or more innovative stuff that will have more advantages (access to better hardware - high speed cpus, networked pcs - eg. fxteleport, software versatility, lack of platform dependence etc). How will CW be more competitive? Quality isnt really a valid argument anymore with all the native stuff kicking around eg. albino, z3ta+, pentagon, tera2 etc. And with CW you have to deal with non existent tech support

.

Lots of good points and discussion from other members. i think i've disturbed the bee hive with my post!! lol.

p.s. yes i do regularly use my pulsar2, minimax is great.

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:07 am

I'd agree that some of the older products could come down a bit, while the newest premium products go for the usual amounts.

However, we're on the brink of the native vs. dsp discussion, which has been exhausted at length, and is not really a accurate comparison.

Good discussion, though.

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:20 am

As for the tech support delays, I can say that Paul Tanti, the tech guru in CW Canada/USA has been on vacation and will be through the new year. As such, everyone else has been wearing a tech support hat (which perhaps didn't initially fit so well at first).

It's easy to read an incredible amount into these little frustrations, but I still maintain that we're wasting our time hashing out worst case scenarios. CW is obviously thinking about all this, or at least their restructuring counselors are.

As for the prices issue... this keeps coming up. But I look at MOTU products and aside from the XLR inputs, they really don't offer anything that a LUNA II EX card, and they cost way more. These cards really provide far more value than anyone is willing to give them credit.

As for the marketing, I agree, they could do more.

What they are trying to do is get people into the stores to do demonstrations on their own machines which they bring to the stores with them. But I think they should give great consideration into loaning out computers with Scope cards and a full arsenal of plugs to the stores that are interested in carrying CW cards and keep it on full display, sending in the CW Enthusiasts to do staff training.

That's how I found CW. I had heard about CW from a few people but could never find any reviews, etc. Finally, it was upgrade time and Portland Music Company had a system on display. It was right when 2.04 came out and some reviews were more easily had. So with that bit of info I road-tripped from Seattle, WA to Portland, OR to tinker with their setup. I spent about 10 minutes with it before I realized it was head and shoulders beyond any 'sound card' I could buy and I built my upgrade around a Pulsar II and Luna II for the I/O configurations and because I knew I'd outgrow the Pulsar II fairly quickly.

Being able to come back and push knobs around when you've got some time to kill is really a great selling tool. Most serious shops have ProTools setups you can tinker with.

I don't think it's too expensive to throw together some recycled computers with some old A7M266, BH6's, or CUSL-2 (I think that's the designation) as motherboards. In fact with some eBay'd parts and a cheapo monitor, all you'd need is someone to come and set it up with a Scope card and install the keys. Or pre-image the machine and leave a copy of the disc with them. That way if someone screws it up you can always start fresh.

They could even give Creamware enthusiasts with spare machines to use a couple of plugs in exchange for them donating their old clunker to the cause. It's not like the Guitar Center demo machine needs to run 48 tracks of audio simultaneously!

That would be my only real suggestion for them. Not just in store demoes, but in store installations.

Anyway, this thread is starting to steam me, so unless someone says something completely uncalled for, this will be my last post on the topic as I don't think I have anything else to say on the matter.

Sam

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:34 am

Heck I'd be more than happy to give out demos here in my area (at official reseller locatations, aka. Guitar Center who can 'order' the cards but don't really acknowledge they carry them anymore unfortunately).

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:18 am

oooh yeah...just set up a computer with a Pulsar and a pair of big speakers, load in modular II with the Morpheus patch and if any customer isn't impressed by that....let them hear Minimax

Guaranteed sale!
Seriously though, I agree with the points about marketing. CW seems to forget that the best way to sell their cards is to let people listen to them. Soundquality is their big selling point right, so indeed they should have demo machines up in stores. Or just use NOAH's because they would sound roughly the same. Some cheesy mp3's on a website are hardly adequate to demonstrate the power of some CW synths.

Eric Dahlberg · Post by **Eric Dahlberg** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:21 am

OK, this is probably an extremely silly question but are you guys sure that 09.12.2003 really refers to September 12 & not December 9?

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 7:48 am

I think in Europe it means december 9th, but in the USA it means september 12th. Confusing eh?

sinix · Post by **sinix** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:39 am

Maybe this has been said already, but...

In one of Creamware Frank's post on this board he made it pretty clear that SFP for music production and MI sales in general were actually not the prime portion of Creamwares overall business. The bulk of their income comes from the products they sell in the Broadcast Industry and the technology/manufacturing they license to other companies (Fairlight is just one that comes to mind). It's fair to say we have no idea how business is in these other areas.

Keeping this in mind, it's safe to say that something like Noah or a couple plugins aren't going to make or break them either way. However, it is clear that the long development of Noah clearly played a large role in this affair.

Here's to hoping for a very prosperous New Year for the folks at CW. We all benefit from them doing well in all areas of their operations.

doctorgrow · Post by **doctorgrow** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:17 am

Word up everybody.

in reference to the German "Amtsgericht Bonn"
the insolvency administrator has stated "Masseunzulänglichkeit".
According to my informations about German law, this means that the Money out of the Insolvency Mass is enough for the costs of the insolvency itself, but not for completion of all other commitments in the given time.

Normally after stating "Masseunzulänglichkeit" the insolvency gets closed.

Best information you can get on:

https://www.insolvenzen.nrw.de/cgi-bin/ ... Verfahrens+--

the official anouncments of the Insolvency Court Bonn...
copy and paste to ie.

I am not a professional on German law, but this all sounds like cw is bought by someone or fucked up. Well let's wait for an official statement from cw. That's all we can do. If they go down you will see tears in my eyes.

d

ElectronicaDub · Post by **ElectronicaDub** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:06 pm

Merry Christmas, everybody

I love my Pulsar card. I love the way it has enabled me to use all of those analogish sounds instead of paying a fortune for secondhand synths etc. I love it to bits and would not want to change it for a long time. I use two 10 year old Ensoniq boards(an EPS16+ and a TS10), and Pulsar and these old boards mesh together well, much better than using VSTi's. I find Pulsar a much more easier way of working.

I don't think Creamware will vanish; even if they do, so what? Roland don't make Junos anymore, and Ensoniq disappeared up the back end of Creative Labs. Pulsar is a classic already. I won't be selling mine, ever.

Just my thoughts for today

dante · Post by **dante** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:46 pm

As long as my DAW doesnt break, Ill have no problem continuing to use my Creamware stuff as is for the next couple of years, even if CW went bust.

Im sticking to Cubase SL 1.06 and not upgrading to 2.0 because of broken features.

I didnt get any of windows between 98 and XP.

Leapfrogging I call it. Leapfrog over the problems.

Why troubleshoot a new setup every 6 months when you can do it every coupla years ?

Eric Dahlberg · Post by **Eric Dahlberg** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:10 pm

True, we're already at a point where SFP/XTC & our OS's are at their bests, so why change? It's not like my Oasys & Core32 cards that force me to keep a damn 98 box for them.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 1:15 am

Unfortunately Mac users probably wish they had been able to come out with OSX software *before* going bankrupt. But thankfully the Windows version has matured to a point where it's perfectly useable for everyone.