ASB - just another retro-move from CWA!?

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:19 am

"And i'm still convinced that firewire is the way to go"

why ?
personnaly I prefer a compact setup than multiple outboards thing etc ..

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:29 am

On 2005-04-07 17:42, astroman wrote:
CWA cannot generate enough cash flow (or attract new customers) with their traditional products, that's a matter of fact.

They could if they did it right.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:40 am

"And i'm still convinced that firewire is the way to go"

why ?

Well when you consider the fiasco that is PCI-e and PCI-X, then an external option that you can use on any computer regardless of make, vintage and whatever fancy new PCI they think we should all upgrade to makes sense to me. Plus you could take it with you on holiday with your laptop and make music on a beach

Mr A

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:39 pm

On 2005-04-08 06:29, doodyrh wrote:
On 2005-04-07 17:42, astroman wrote:
CWA cannot generate enough cash flow (or attract new customers) with their traditional products, that's a matter of fact.
They could if they did it right.

Let's see you try =P

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:08 am

On 2005-04-07 17:42, astroman wrote:
innovation isn't rewarded by the customer - that simple...
old style boxes, be it Korg Electribes, the Evolver, the Virus and of course all 'real' retro gear from the Mini to the TR808 sell in quantities.

We have the PythonPro - noone wants it
Hartmann obviously is in financial trouble or how would one explain the Neuron VSTI release ?
Even more as it was quickly followed by the sample processing software which was originally intended as an exclusive option for hardware buyers.
Now that they aren't blinded by the gorgeous design of the Neuron, people even dare to diss it's sound quality - instead of making use of what's available...

Except Minimax and SixString I have probably every plugin for SFP, and love them all.

But honestly, they are collectors items - for 'music' I only need 10% of what I have available - it's a total luxury of course to be able to switch to arbitrary sounds just when the idea enters the mind.
But for creativity's sake it's already 400% too much. Instead of saving presets I just change the synth and move a few dials...

so what is CWA about to sell to me ?
one of those boxes might apply indeed

CWA cannot generate enough cash flow (or attract new customers) with their traditional products, that's a matter of fact.
These boxes are useful and fill the business gap, be it old fashioned or not

cheers, Tom

Cool point Tom... And, nevertheless, there is no such a thing as old when talking about sounds you like. Perhaps we could talk more about music-fashion that real needs... you're completely right.

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:52 am

They should be consolidating their core product instead of clustering up the product range with toys. Nobody here has said they want one. All the talk is about other people who might want one. We heard all this when Noah came out.

I think most people here want upgraded hardware and software - a commitment to the Scope platform that gives major 3rd parties the confidence to develop for it which in turn gives customers double confidence to buy into it.

I bought my Pulsar in 2001. The top hardware now is no more powerful than anything available then. The last major software upgrade was September 2002. CW should be putting UAD in the shade while offering synths, routing and I/O on top.

Maybe they're working on it but these new toys can only divert resources and reduce focus. The longer it takes to bring a product to market the less cutting-edge it appears when it finally arrives.

As for marketing, V.4 killed off Pulsar - probably CW's most recognisable brand name. And the website totally fails to demonstrate the unique versatility of the product.

And how long is their website's 'Community' link going to point nowhere? Just remove it! On second thoughts, keep it. It perfectly represents the company: unprofessional and directionless.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:50 am

On 2005-04-09 06:52, doodyrh wrote:
They should be consolidating their core product instead of clustering up the product range with toys. Nobody here has said they want one. ...

read the quote from my earlier post above - I've explained that I don't NEED any more 'sounds' or processors from the SFP palette, YET one of those boxes apply for me.

Because it's a full hands-on controller I'd even buy the Profit5 a 2nd time - as I would with a Solaris Hardware for say 1200 Euro.
The usual 'mickey-mouse' plugin interface may be cost effective, but it just s*cks...

I did NOT buy a NOAH because I had most of it's content and there was no advantage in usability.

If anyone fails to do a great, world-class production on SFP because there's a UAD or Sony or whatever - well, then he or she DOES have a severe problem in own abilities...

cheers, Tom
ps: you cannot generate revenues from 'consolidating the platform' by making existing customers pay a second time...

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-04-09 07:54 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:24 am

I don't really understand the comparisons with UAD1 and Powercore. While these cards can sound good, the very nature of their VST front-ends is what makes them absolutely annoying. I use a Powercore Firewire and UAD1 at work, and when working at 1.5ms or 3ms latency, there are so many annoying crackles and pops that it's pretty unusable in a serious situation. It's really not much fun to endure those artifacts, all the time saying to yourself "It will be fine when I mix down at 23ms latency". Meanwhile my Pulsar cards are totally rocking the house with negligible latency and killer sound quality. I lose total recall with the sequencer but quite honestly I really don't care

In this industry there have always been consumer items and professional items. UAD1/Powercore, like the rest of the VST world, are consumer items. They are bought predominantly by consumers - hobbyists and enthusiasts. People who do music for a living generally have a proper studio with proper toys. They might say in an interview that they made their latest album on a laptop with Reason and Ableton Live but I'll be willing to bet everything I own that they took their rough song sketches into a proper studio, and put it through lots of real gear.

There's no denying that there is money to be made in the commercial consumer sector. However this will never get you any serious kudos in the long term (Reason is still a bad joke when it comes to sound quality, the same goes for Ableton Live and the majority of VST instruments). On top of that, the fickle nature of this market means that your product will get forgotten as soon as the latest ultra-hyped crap comes along.

doodyrh · Post by **doodyrh** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:39 am

My point about UAD is that most people looking for DSP effects don't consider Creamware. There should be more development and marketing to get a bigger slice of this market.

And there's no shame in aiming for home studio DAWs. That's where the sales volumes are. But in recognition of that fact there's plenty of room for improvement in integrating Scope/XTC into the sequencer.

On 2005-04-09 07:50, astroman wrote:
If anyone fails to do a great, world-class production on SFP because there's a UAD or Sony or whatever - well, then he or she DOES have a severe problem in own abilities...

If I had a euro for everytime I've heard that I wouldn't invest it in Creamware.
It's irrelevant. The point is that in an innovative hi-tech environment you can't afford to sit back. You have to keep moving ahead and build on your lead.

[ This Message was edited by: doodyrh on 2005-04-09 09:40 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:46 am

On 2005-04-09 09:39, doodyrh wrote:
...The point is that in an innovative hi-tech environment you can't afford to sit back. You have to keep moving ahead and build on your lead....

don't tell me...
if M$ with it's programming legions doesn't get the bugs out of it's sh*t and if Apple resorts to a 25 year old predecessor of their very own OS which they passionately flamed 20 years ago...

if all and everything that appears in plugin form is the copy of some retro gear...
Native Instruments' latest applications have the same sh*tty sound as the very first version of Reaktor

Anything new on a Virus ? A Nordlead ?
The latest Korg (my apologies in advance to John Cooper) is the smart quintessence of all cool Korg gear under one hood.
It is certainly great, it's convenient, but is it innovative ? NO.

Rythms are still beat into the MPC and there's a brand new M-Audio controller mimicking exactly that
Sequences are still programmed by the TR808 paradigm and Electribes sell like cake.

VIA isn't able get a decent PCI performance in 5 years, it looks like my P4 on 865 has less throughput than my previous Celeron on 815 chipset.

what innovation do you mean exactly ?
or is the statement above the same buzzword bullsh*t I've heard on dozens of fairs and read in 100 times as many mags ?

cheers, Tom

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:27 am

Interesting points Astroman, but if all that is true, how did we ever advance from electric typewriters to computers ?

Innovations & advances are constantly being made. And for every rebadged piece of recycled conceptual junk there's something that shows some flair. (Well maybe the ratio is less

)

For example, while the Reaktor sound isn't too great (to my ears) the latest version includes a lot of spiffy new features. And the new Symphonic Choirs release by East-West with full word-builder is on my to-buy list for sure.

When I first started out in what wild dream did I ever think I would be able to make commercial-fidelity choirs sing my words on computer !

But of course there's masses of junk. Buy, buy, buy is what we're whipped along to do.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 11:23 am

There's always been masses of junk. Before software came along, there were a few people innovating, and a lot of people making cheap low-quality clones. Roland probably made a lot more money out of their Junos than they did out of Jupiters. ARP and SCI aren't really doing much these days, but their classic instruments are still in high demand, even though they are in many ways pretty unweildy and impractical.

Only time will tell what instruments are really worth something.. I have serious doubts that a Virus TI will be considered a classic in 20 year's time. However, any intelligent person will be able to note that in our age, there is nothing that does what a Scope system can do.

I very much doubt that CW will stop investing in their core platform.. these spin-off synths are a way of consolidating that. It's the equivalent of a Juno whereas a Scope system could be thought of as an MKS80.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:59 pm

Spirit, I've named in a post further up like you do below yours

On 2005-04-09 11:27, Spirit wrote:
...
But of course there's masses of junk. Buy, buy, buy is what we're whipped along to do. ...

(True) innovation isn't a big seller today, like it once was 20 years ago - when we moved away from typewriters...
I don't neglict it's existence at all, but I highly doubt it's presence in mass selling stuff.
This industry (and I'm still an active part of it) has become a self-fullfilling promise

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-04-09 14:00 ]

Liquid EDGE · Post by **Liquid EDGE** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:46 pm

wot i don't get is this. these Hardware things are exactly the same as wot we can already get for the scope cards? so for us existing scope owners why bother bying one.

for people who don't understand how amazing the scope card is and still love to get hardware(even though these boxes have software in them) will maybe buy them but then check out the scope platform.. see that for the cash they have just spent they could get a whole studio in a box and the synths in software form not surounded by a bit of plastic.and then feel ripped off...

am i being an idiot and missing something..

also those who said it be nice to have one cos mice are anoying.. then why not buy one of thse beringer controlers.. fader or knob/dials one..

they should make a scope firewire or usb card/box as the next step. laptops are the way forward i'm sure..

they do look nice though

_________________
Keep Rollin'

http://www.mutationrecords.co.uk

[ This Message was edited by: Liquid EDGE on 2005-04-09 19:19 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:31 pm

On 2005-04-09 18:46, Liquid EDGE wrote:
they should make a scope firewire or usb card/box as the next step. laptops are the way forward i'm sure..

It's been 2 years i'm yelling that!!!

Damn it, when does cw will finnaly understand!

They can make everybody happy with a firewire interface :

homestudio owner's, and gigging musicians too. Even big studio, 'cause they can rack it.

pff, will cw understand? Or if they allready understand, will they listen too us?

In and another thread, someone as said he prefer compact, instead of out of the box units... Tell me what is more compact, a laptop which is velcroed on the top of a firewire scope or a big shitty PC box, noisy as hell, un-portable with a nice PCI card in?

Come on, i'm sure everybody should be able to see this!

Ok, i'll stop now... enough for one day me think

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:37 pm

btw, i realise i'm ranting alot around this subject(firewire), but it's my way of keeping pressure, or something similar anyway...

So sorry for those that are annoyed

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:01 pm

hi

the only way i can help creamware
is buying their products
I have 4 creamware cards (a16ultra and lunaI/o box)i think is enough
i have bought all the high end devices i need.
now is 3 years i don see a relevant software update(3.1c or 4.0 are the same all you know that) or some highend plug in
(no synths please

)
now a hardware box and seem a new dsp card
and what i must think?
I can't buy another new dsp card.

i have bought few days ago
Hydratone and Valvetone62 from
http://www.tritonedigital.com with pluggo interface they are top quality.
creamware have lost my 200$.

Anyway the hope is the last to died

Post by **hubird** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:48 pm

On 2005-04-09 19:37, marcuspocus wrote:
btw, i realise i'm ranting alot around this subject(firewire), but it's my way of keeping pressure, or something similar anyway...

no man, go on, I like those eruptions, and they make sense to me

With an external box, CWA would also solve the G5 problem in one shot.
Built-in RAM and off you go, that's what I got clear at least (thanks to planetz

).

(off topic, but I hope we will be able to put our cards streight into the box, but, considering the RAM, if I remember well that could be the hook...).

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-04-09 20:50 ]

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:25 pm

And how many audio tracks could go through a firewire connection? I admit that the idea seems really appealing, to have both high quality synths as well as processing power in one convenient box. But wasn't precisely what Noah offered, or aimed at?

Post by **garyb** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:26 pm

well, except for the obvious hardware changes coming to pci, i love the cards and really don't want that to end. a box is just so much extra gear and cost. the box may be the only alternative though and i think that sucks. yes, a laptop could be integrated easier, but is an external box and a laptop really that much more portable than a lcd flat screen and a pc tower?

if the box is the best alternative, i'll go with that, but i bet it adds $500-$1000 to the price of a system......

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-04-09 22:26 ]