Isn't that a nice brotherhood for you Spirit?
You do not have an open mind , and you try to discredit the messenger in stead of taking one moment of your live to just listen and consider the facts that are being presented.
All the buildings that collapsed where from Silverstein. He bought the whole complex for 200 Million Dollar and gained 7 Billion dollar from the attack.
How will President George W. Bush make a personal fortune from the War on Terror?
The old fashioned way. He'll inherit it; Meet the Carlyle Group.
You know the company "Controled Demolition Inc" ? Just look at what these guys are able to do. (just try a google search)
And compare there work with what you've seen happening to the WTC buildings ( all of them)
Just try and put some decent archuments in this post Spirit , and don't be a sheep!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Casper on 2005-03-23 03:54 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Casper on 2005-03-23 04:06 ]</font>
The day against war
@ Antar.
I guess my thought was that leaving Iraq with no internal security force, lots of foreign fighters, and lots of beligerant and factionist Iraqis all armed to the teeth wouldn't be very good !
The main complaint by the 'average' Iraqi at the moment is not directly about the occupation (as far as I can see) but about the fact that they can't walk out the door without being mugged / kidnapped / having their house burgled. This would surely get worse if they were left in anarchy.
Civil war is not far round the corner.
Also, we've got to remember that in general, lots and lots of Iraqis are currently being killed not by occupation forces but by other Iraqis and foreign fighters (whatever the percentages). It's easy to see this whole horrible business precisely as black and white - as victimised Iraqis fighting an unwanted occupation. But while that is clearly a motivation, there's lots more going on besides that !
@ Garyb
totally agree ... you can see the problems in Iraq as stemming more from the fact that we invaded in the first place than that we are still there (if you see what I mean)
The money spent on that war could have pretty much guaranteed fully renewable hydrogen production and electricity generation or even fusion power !
A much better way of spending our time, of course !
But this is not to say that there ISN'T such a thing as a just war (for instance, lots of you think, and maybe I even agree, that the war against occupying forces in Iraq is okay) - sometimes people really would rather shoot you than take your money ! And in those cases you surely have a right to defend yourself and your values.
another example: surely the shia uprising in 1991 was just - after all, they hadn't got very far with saddam by gentle diplomacy, had they ?
Or what about Rwanda ? Given that one side wasn't listening to our 'no war' shouts, we could hardly expect the other side to sit around peacefully waiting to be slaughtered, could we ? Their war (if they had had any guns !) would have been pretty justified i think.
As I said, I don't think our recent invasion was just. But that wasn't supposed to be the point. To say 'no to war' sounds on the face of it, in these dark days, to say 'yes' to whoever is most powerful / malicious / dominating.
Clearly it would be great if we could all just get on with all the positive things we humans have to offer. But sometimes that potential has to be protected ...
Surely we all agree on that ?
W
I guess my thought was that leaving Iraq with no internal security force, lots of foreign fighters, and lots of beligerant and factionist Iraqis all armed to the teeth wouldn't be very good !
The main complaint by the 'average' Iraqi at the moment is not directly about the occupation (as far as I can see) but about the fact that they can't walk out the door without being mugged / kidnapped / having their house burgled. This would surely get worse if they were left in anarchy.
Civil war is not far round the corner.
Also, we've got to remember that in general, lots and lots of Iraqis are currently being killed not by occupation forces but by other Iraqis and foreign fighters (whatever the percentages). It's easy to see this whole horrible business precisely as black and white - as victimised Iraqis fighting an unwanted occupation. But while that is clearly a motivation, there's lots more going on besides that !
@ Garyb
totally agree ... you can see the problems in Iraq as stemming more from the fact that we invaded in the first place than that we are still there (if you see what I mean)
The money spent on that war could have pretty much guaranteed fully renewable hydrogen production and electricity generation or even fusion power !
A much better way of spending our time, of course !
But this is not to say that there ISN'T such a thing as a just war (for instance, lots of you think, and maybe I even agree, that the war against occupying forces in Iraq is okay) - sometimes people really would rather shoot you than take your money ! And in those cases you surely have a right to defend yourself and your values.
another example: surely the shia uprising in 1991 was just - after all, they hadn't got very far with saddam by gentle diplomacy, had they ?
Or what about Rwanda ? Given that one side wasn't listening to our 'no war' shouts, we could hardly expect the other side to sit around peacefully waiting to be slaughtered, could we ? Their war (if they had had any guns !) would have been pretty justified i think.
As I said, I don't think our recent invasion was just. But that wasn't supposed to be the point. To say 'no to war' sounds on the face of it, in these dark days, to say 'yes' to whoever is most powerful / malicious / dominating.
Clearly it would be great if we could all just get on with all the positive things we humans have to offer. But sometimes that potential has to be protected ...
Surely we all agree on that ?
W
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Gordon Gekko
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Could be that Bush will liberalise the Middle East - end its oppressive censorship and give women equal rights ! Now wouldn't the Euros hate that 
It's easy for you to sit in comfort behind your computer and say who the USA should or shouldn't attack based on the conveniently packaged news morsels served up by your TV dinners.
However you don't have to walk down the street knowing you could be shot by a sniper at any moment, or killed in an explosion. Iraq may have been a dictatorship, but you could at least have a normal life if you stayed out of politics (getting too deep into defeating rigid western political structures will be met by the same kind of murderous retribution, by the way). A normal life, that is, except for basic medical supplies which were denied because of US/UN sanctions.
It's so easy to sit in your armchair and cheer on one side over the other like some absurd sport, but you really don't have the right to do so. Why are you so content to believe that Iran has nuclear capabilities, when you know that the last bit of convenient propoganda regarding Iraq's 'WMD' was proven to be false?
However you don't have to walk down the street knowing you could be shot by a sniper at any moment, or killed in an explosion. Iraq may have been a dictatorship, but you could at least have a normal life if you stayed out of politics (getting too deep into defeating rigid western political structures will be met by the same kind of murderous retribution, by the way). A normal life, that is, except for basic medical supplies which were denied because of US/UN sanctions.
It's so easy to sit in your armchair and cheer on one side over the other like some absurd sport, but you really don't have the right to do so. Why are you so content to believe that Iran has nuclear capabilities, when you know that the last bit of convenient propoganda regarding Iraq's 'WMD' was proven to be false?
We don't know, so there's 50% chance either direction. They were obviously wrong on Iraq, so they must be right now on Iran. 
How about the latest scam, U.S. misled allies on Korea? Annoying amount of flaws in their multi billion intelligence huh.
How about the latest scam, U.S. misled allies on Korea? Annoying amount of flaws in their multi billion intelligence huh.
more has been done with less
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
http://costofwar.com/how many billions have been put to slaughter and butchery in this one little war alone? i'll bet that that same sum(both dollars and other forms of energy) used for humanity's pleasure would be much more effective for solving problems and gaining trust....
So, who would remove USA from this planet as they most obviously have WMD?It would have been much better to have waited a year and attacked Iran instead since they're obviously intent on building nuclear weapons.
Just to shift the topic.. briefly...let's remember the English. Take over a country, declare it a British Colony, then hang dissenters for Treason Against the King!
Or Maui Maui, in the 50's. Didn't they crowd a few hundred natives into a fenced area, then starve them to death...women and children included?
The Falklands....mmmh... critical piece of British territory. Look at a map to see the insanity of that one. Yet people lost their lives over it.
When the tail starts wagging the dog, the dog is in trouble.
PS. I think Condoleezza wants to be President.... something to look forward to..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikka on 2005-03-23 19:19 ]</font>
Or Maui Maui, in the 50's. Didn't they crowd a few hundred natives into a fenced area, then starve them to death...women and children included?
The Falklands....mmmh... critical piece of British territory. Look at a map to see the insanity of that one. Yet people lost their lives over it.
When the tail starts wagging the dog, the dog is in trouble.
PS. I think Condoleezza wants to be President.... something to look forward to..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikka on 2005-03-23 19:19 ]</font>
I don't claim to have any deep insight into Iraq or Iran. However, I do have friends in Lebanon who regularly travel both to Iraq and Iran so I do get some good 'on-the-ground' information, albeit second-hand, from them.
So while I'm making 'armchair comments', so is everyone else. And is advocating doing nothing from an armchair superior to advocating action from an armchair ? Either path can have dire consequences.
So while I'm making 'armchair comments', so is everyone else. And is advocating doing nothing from an armchair superior to advocating action from an armchair ? Either path can have dire consequences.
I think it's curious how bitterly Euros seem to resent the US. It's almost as worrying as some of the other fanatical beliefs in the world today.On 2005-03-23 12:57, spoimala wrote:
So, who would remove USA from this planet as they most obviously have WMD?
Perhaps it might pay to take a broader view at the nature of various world and regional powers this century...
Fascist Italy
Third Reich
Stalinist Russia
North Korea
Pol Pot's Cambodia
China's Cultural Revolution & Tienamin
The US sure isn't perfect but I know who I'd rather have as a neighbour.
Yep.. amongst other delights, they're responsible for the situation in Israel/Palestine right now. Don't get me started on the rest.. the latest of which is playing the role of the US's lapdog in this pitiful aggression.
History has shown that every single empire in existence has imploded as a result of a popular revolt, or of the empire's own debauchery. It's a shame we can't learn from past mistakes, save ourselves a lot of heartache and try and make things better for everyone.
I don't really hold too much hope as long as private businesses have such a massive interest in the war industry - everyone from 'peacekeepers', construction companies, and of course the arms industry feed off people's misery like fat bloodsucking leeches.
History has shown that every single empire in existence has imploded as a result of a popular revolt, or of the empire's own debauchery. It's a shame we can't learn from past mistakes, save ourselves a lot of heartache and try and make things better for everyone.
I don't really hold too much hope as long as private businesses have such a massive interest in the war industry - everyone from 'peacekeepers', construction companies, and of course the arms industry feed off people's misery like fat bloodsucking leeches.
It's my sincere belief that if you can't do something positive (I cannot count committing or advocating any form of violence, justified or unjustified, as a positive action), then it's better to do nothing at all.On 2005-03-23 20:23, Spirit wrote:And is advocating doing nothing from an armchair superior to advocating action from an armchair ?
Speaking for myself, I'm of Asian origin, living in the UK. I have many dear friends who are English and European (most of whose nationalities have dark colonial histories), and I know many very cool people and also have family who live in the US.On 2005-03-23 20:35, Spirit wrote:
I think it's curious how bitterly Euros seem to resent the US. It's almost as worrying as some of the other fanatical beliefs in the world today.
Yes, I resent the US political system, and its activities throughout the world via the military and the CIA, and the economic and cultural imperialism they inflict on the world.
This does not mean I wish any Americans should burn in flames or whatever. However I do think it would be beneficial to them to look at the effect they are having on the world, even apart from this pointless war.
I don't think it means I'm a fanatic just because I have the power of discrimination, to make intelligent choices based on the facts I see before me?
I need to have a cynical blattt.....
Maybe the US has found a new form of democracy. Capitalocracy.... sort of a cross....you know, by the rich and powerful, for the rich and powerful.
It seems to be how Congress works...
Regardless, I don't believe you can IMPOSE democracy.
I'll pull my head in now before people start tapping my phone or recording my emails.
Maybe the US has found a new form of democracy. Capitalocracy.... sort of a cross....you know, by the rich and powerful, for the rich and powerful.
It seems to be how Congress works...
Regardless, I don't believe you can IMPOSE democracy.
I'll pull my head in now before people start tapping my phone or recording my emails.
well, the same day this thread started I read 1.5 million playing warcraft as a news title...
whenever I enter an internet cafe, 90% of the screens show the same 'behind the gun' egoshooter view - millions of copies out.
add some Hollywood movies from the 'Lord of the Rings' to the Vin Diesel style of doing things, which they happen to name 'blockbuster' (here in TV - how cute...) then it becomes obvious:
it's all in the genes
while it's a stupid war (and I'm absolutely convinced that the most recent hurricane season was the bill for Desert Storm #1 - remember the burning oilfields?), I don't expect the 'other side' to be any better.
I'd expect exactly the same kind of 'imperialism' (if circumstances were accordingly), just under a different flag - and in this case I'm with Spirit when it comes to choosing a neighbour...
Imho it takes a fairly educated and sophisticated mind and a good portion of self discipline to really be a peaceful person under all(!) daily circumstances.
It's an illusion to assume this attitude is widespread, let alone in less developed countries where pure survivel often requires quite different skills.
a little more conversation, a little less action, please...
cheers, Tom
whenever I enter an internet cafe, 90% of the screens show the same 'behind the gun' egoshooter view - millions of copies out.
add some Hollywood movies from the 'Lord of the Rings' to the Vin Diesel style of doing things, which they happen to name 'blockbuster' (here in TV - how cute...) then it becomes obvious:
it's all in the genes
while it's a stupid war (and I'm absolutely convinced that the most recent hurricane season was the bill for Desert Storm #1 - remember the burning oilfields?), I don't expect the 'other side' to be any better.
I'd expect exactly the same kind of 'imperialism' (if circumstances were accordingly), just under a different flag - and in this case I'm with Spirit when it comes to choosing a neighbour...
Imho it takes a fairly educated and sophisticated mind and a good portion of self discipline to really be a peaceful person under all(!) daily circumstances.
It's an illusion to assume this attitude is widespread, let alone in less developed countries where pure survivel often requires quite different skills.
a little more conversation, a little less action, please...
cheers, Tom
............ 'I don't like mass destruction weapens, one by one makes more fun'I don't think it's a good idea to favour one form of imperialism over another. I personally reject all of them. I think people are too ready to accept the crimes that a powerful aggressor commits (perhaps until they become the victims)... not a very healthy attitude IMHO.
Regarding choosing a neighbour... look at the sick death porn that came out of the Abu Ghraib prison. Is this a good culture to take sides with? I don't think so. If you ask me it is way way more fucked up than the 'terrorists'. Not that I have any time for the terrorists either.
Regarding choosing a neighbour... look at the sick death porn that came out of the Abu Ghraib prison. Is this a good culture to take sides with? I don't think so. If you ask me it is way way more fucked up than the 'terrorists'. Not that I have any time for the terrorists either.
Absolutely!On 2005-03-24 04:52, dArKr3zIn wrote:
I don't think it's a good idea to favour one form of imperialism over another. I personally reject all of them. I think people are too ready to accept the crimes that a powerful aggressor commits (perhaps until they become the victims)... not a very healthy attitude IMHO.
Regarding choosing a neighbour... look at the sick death porn that came out of the Abu Ghraib prison. Is this a good culture to take sides with? I don't think so. If you ask me it is way way more fucked up than the 'terrorists'. Not that I have any time for the terrorists either.
And if anyone could argue that Abu Ghraib has been just an episode, something out of control, well, there is Guantanamo, that is totally under control and it's the grave of all we know as democratic and "western" values, a shame of enormous proportions.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2005-03-24 07:02 ]</font>