Analogue mixer or not?

Labman · Post by **Labman** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:25 am

Hi,

I'd just like to get a few peoples opinions. I have a powerpulsar and pulsar2. I mix everything inside the computer on the pulsar software and Cubase SX . I am thinking of getting something like a Mackie 8buss analogue mixer and pump out all the tracks into it to get some warmth into the mix. Has anyone done this and does it sound better?

labman

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:13 am

Well, i would only be tempted to do this if i had a really nice desk, maybe one of the old Brit classics. i would say that you might get better results with an expensive pre-amp/recording strip (one with digital in/out to avoid AD/DA conversion) - there are lots of new models based on classic designs, but with digital interfacing. Then you could track any live instruments straight into your DAW, and also send any internal sources you though needed the warmth through your pre-amp. Of course this would be a slower process as you would have to record every source individually and in real-time.

Make sure you mix in SCOPE by bussing the Cubase outputs. And don't forget Vinco is a nice warmer-upper too.

Mr A

Labman · Post by **Labman** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:32 am

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. I already have an Avalon-737SP but I'm alaways looking for that bit extra. I'm always reading equipment articles and noticed that Mackie claim that the 8buss mixer has EQ quality etc. far beyond it's price tag so I was wondering if anyone has experienced it in a pulsar setup and could give me an insight.

labman

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:40 pm

On 2005-02-23 07:25, Labman wrote:
Hi,

I'd just like to get a few peoples opinions. I have a powerpulsar and pulsar2. I mix everything inside the computer on the pulsar software and Cubase SX . I am thinking of getting something like a Mackie 8buss analogue mixer and pump out all the tracks into it to get some warmth into the mix. Has anyone done this and does it sound better?

labman

It's going to sound different, better is so subjective. I would be very surprised if this was the solution to your problem (not enough warmth). I would have to say that you should take a look at what you can do while trackng to increase the feeling of warmth.

To be honest though, I have no experience with this particular board. Can you rent one for a weekend and try it out before buying?

R

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:38 pm

I don't think that you'll get the benefit you are looking for just from the Mackie mixer.

Also, if you sample your sounds, arrange them, then bus out to the mixer, you'll have to sample them again, potentiallly introducing another level of degradation.

If you want warmer sounds, use a good A/D converter.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:07 pm

On 2005-02-23 08:13, Mr Arkadin wrote:
... . i would say that you might get better results with an expensive pre-amp/recording strip (one with digital in/out to avoid AD/DA conversion) ...

You don't awoid the conversions just because you use a preamp with digital i/o. You only move the conversion into the preamp.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:09 pm

labman

If you want a bit of warm distortion, you may want to just add a bit of saturation. Flexor may do what you want, but tastes vary.

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:33 pm

Immanuel wrote:

You don't awoid the conversions just because you use a preamp with digital i/o. You only move the conversion into the preamp

No, i meant avoiding using the SCOPE converters to go to/from a preamp with only analogue input/output. Although the SCOPE converters are good, i'd imagine that a high-end channel would have better ones.

Mr A

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2005-02-23 15:34 ]</font>

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:40 pm

I know several people who use the Mackie and feel its 'ok' but something like an Allen&Heath will probably give you more 'warmth' (and less problems than the 8-bus's ribbon interconnects).

Another (imo better) option would be to cast an eye at the used mixer department. Something with late 70's to mid 80's vintage (do research and determine what years are best for what make/models) should provide adequate headroom for 'warmth'. Just check the mixer for abuse and noise (leaky components inline) before making your final purchase. The Soundtracs 8-bus I wound up with here was on loan to me for 3 months before I finally decided to pay the guy and get it over with.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:47 pm

yeah, i know mackie's sales line. an old "endorsement" went something like this: "i work on ssls all day long and my mackie 8 bus sounds as good as any ssl i've ever heard."

if you believe everything a salesman said you'd be lost. don't believe the hype. the mackie is certainly good enough for most work and it is well enough made, but don't even THINK that it will perform like anything exotic. an old british board like an '80s soundcraft or an old tac or amek or neve is one thing. if you have one of those, i wouldn't be surprised if you gave up some convienience to mix there. but for a mackie?(or any of those cheap pa/recording boards) i'd say just use scope or even cubase.

sure, analog summing is nice, but if you're that picky, get a dangerous 2 bus or the like and save space and stress. i seriously doubt if analog summing will be the difference between grammy and garbage.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:05 pm

Build a DIY analog summing mixer. Cheap and good

Post by **hubird** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:14 pm

wise words from Gary

And like someone said already, a decent vintage warmer plugin can do even better than what a Mackie and those can do

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:17 am

better to invest on very good preamp like great river NV . analogue summing won't give your warmth if the source is cold . the money is on the preamp .

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:19 am

On 2005-02-24 05:17, spiderman wrote:
better to invest on very good preamp like great river NV . analogue summing won't give your warmth if the source is cold . the money is on the preamp .

Agreed.

I.m.o. SFP mixers are a big step from most DAW sequencer mixers, at least when it comes to stereo-separation.
Invest in preamps instead, that's a field you really can't work around.

interloper · Post by **interloper** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:31 pm

A good preamp or those old school british consoles will give you the warmth.

A good converter will translate the warmth by providing accurate ambience, depth, stereo image, etc.

Bad converters don't give you that, and can introduce quantization errors and artifacts.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:18 pm

imho there's objective warmth - subjective to anyone's personal receiptiom, tho

which is associated with certain frequencies...
and fake warmth, associated with the color and touch feeling of a vacuum tube.

The latter isn't that easy to defeat - as everyone knows from restaurant menus, user interface design, brand awareness and last but not least the visual appearance of a person.
One is supposed to not judge the book by the cover, but how to ignore it ?

A converter usually operates in association with a filter, so it's certainly noticable in the frequency domain - imho they all sound different, but I'm not always sure which one sounds best.

But it's definetely not the converter's resolution that defines a 'warm' sound.
An original DX7 completely outperforms NI's FM7 (using Scope converters for example) in that context.

Btw. people have reported that an (almost completely) jitter-free signal 'sounds' cold as artic...

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:37 am

we like our random errors. makes life real.

i also doubt that many mic pres with ad converters under $5000 have a significantly better sounding digitization than the cwa card's. even the behrigers sound pretty good, especially when clocked thru word.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:55 am

I have this weird idea that, given good clean converters, warmth might be more related to signal source than signal processing.

I guess an easy (but probably not cheap) way of getting some warmth into the mix is sending your mix to a mastering house and have them run it thru some vintage analog mastering compressor-thinger like a L2A2 or Fairchild.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:47 am

And with analog recordings - what room do you use. Rooms have huge effect on the sound of the recordings.

davo · Post by **davo** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:42 pm

don't forget about the microphone you use