I recently wanted to upgrade my trusty but ageing Dell P3 1.2ghz laptop, so I spent a lot of time doing some research. There was no specific need to upgrade, as my Dell has been serving me very well for quite a while now, running very nicely indeed with my Magma PCI chassis (housing 2 Pulsars) and RME multiface. However I wanted more speed and memory (my laptop has 815 chipset which as many of you know is limited to 512mb RAM).
Someone mentioned to me that my findings may be useful to others, and I'm inclined to agree since I found virtually zero up-to-date info about serious audio laptops (by serious I mean using a proper audio interface, not USB toys). Indeed, many users may not need to consider these things if their laptop is just a quick scratchpad for ideas or internet surfing or whatever. However, I am looking for a serious desktop alternative.
So here it is, a quick guide to what to look for when buying a music laptop.
Basically I found that theres no less than 3 intel-based laptop solutions around at the moment:
Pentium 4 - A standard P4 chip in a laptop. Heavy, hot, low battery life.
Pentium 4-M - A mobile P4, presumably a bit more refined in terms of battery life.
Pentium-M - The newest chip, part of the 'Centrino' concept. Faster than its clock speed indicates : a 1.6ghz Pentium M is roughly equivalent to a 2.0 to 2.2 gHz Pentium 4. This chip generates less heat and has better battery life, and also results in much lighter laptops.
There are many pro's and con's for all laptops, regarding features etc. For music use, I found that it is very important to look carefully at the following :
1. Cardbus controller
This is extremely important. I recently got the use of a Sony Vaio 2.6ghz P4 laptop at work. Nice laptop in many ways. However, this Sony like most others has a RICOH cardbus controller which, as it happens, is the one type of controller specifically not recommended by Magma. I tried to install SFP on it anyway, and it installed and ran fine (very fast in fact). The problems began when I tried to drag devices into the project - insurmountable PCI overloads. Even with 1 masterverb.
The cardbus controller seems to work okay with the RME multiface, although it does some weird things occasionally (strange buzzing appearing randomly), although I need to test further. In any case I would never recommend a Sony laptop to anyone.
Another thing to be careful about is how many Cardbus slots you think you may need. Most laptops nowadays are opting for 1 cardbus slot, which in my opinion is very lame indeed. For example, on some occasions I have needed to run the Magma and RME at the same time, this would be impossible with only 1 slot. The only manufacturers I have seen so far with 2x cardbus slots in their newest machines are Toshiba and IBM - for example, the Toshiba Tecra S-1, or the IBM T40p.
2. PS/2 port
Trust me, you will go insane using a trackpad or 'nipple' joystick as an input device. I can't work for long without plugging my optical PS/2 mouse into my Dell. However I was extremely disappointed to note that hardly any manufacturer provides a PS/2 port anymore. So unless you want to use a USB mouse, hunt down a laptop with a PS/2 port. Again, the Toshiba Tecra S-1 is the only new laptop model around with a PS/2 port.
3. Other I/O ports
Like the PS/2 issue, don't just assume any 'standard' i/o port will definitely be there on your shiny new laptop. Read the specs carefully. During my research, I was astonished to find that the IBM T40p (arguably the cream of the current laptop crop, reflected heavily in the price) does not have a firewire port. At least, if it does, the specs on the website do not mention it. Neither do the glowing reviews for this laptop. While this seems to be a weird exception, it is true that past standards such as serial and parallel ports are being phased out, so it's good to make sure. It's also worth noting that virtually all firewire ports on laptops are 4-pin, so bus-powering a firewire device is not possible.
4. Screen resolution/graphics
While I do know many musicians refuse to work in anything higher than 1024x768 because otherwise 'they will go blind', I personally could not deal with a resolution lower than 1280x1024. Most plugins these days demand it anyway. Unfortunately, the standard with laptops is still 1024x768 : an unusable resolution for me. While it's true that high-res screens add to the cost, you will not regret paying the price. There is also an increasing amount of laptops which have widescreen LCDs. Very nice for sure, but undoubtedly these add to the weight and battery consumption.
Also, it is definitely good to have a dedicated graphics card inside the laptop. Integrated graphics solutions (such as Intel etc) will usually share the main RAM. Everything is just so much faster when you have a 32mb+ GeForce/ATI mobile card.
5. Realtime performance
This is obviously a bit difficult to guage until you bring the laptop home and install your stuff on it. However, I can at least relate my experiences. While the Dell Inspiron 8100 I've used for the last year or so has served me extremely well, I have had concerns about the performance, namely latencies possible. I cannot go below 12ms on my RME multiface, even though I have seen people with Toshiba's and IBM's report 1.5ms latency with slower processors than mine! I personally don't have the technical knowledge to know why this is happening, but it seems that the Toshibas and IBMs are engineered better. I've seen similar reports with higher-spec Dells like the Inspiron 8200 as well.
My personal choice for a laptop would be a pentium-M 1.6ghz or above, with 1GB of DDR, 1400x1050 screen with a 64mb DDR ATI mobility Radeon9000, 2x cardbus slots with Texas Instruments controller, firewire (ideally 6pin), PS/2 port, 54mbit wireless, gigabit ethernet (I haven't found a single laptop with this so far), ability to take a 2nd battery, svideo/composite TV-out.
No laptop that I found has all this stuff, for now anyway. The closest I found is the Toshiba Tecra S-1. Unfortunately for me I live in the UK, where Toshiba does not supply all models, or offer any customization of their laptops. The result of this is that the Tecra S-1 is only available with 1024x768 resolution, and the default Intel 22mbit wireless. While this would still be a great machine, in the US it is available with 1600x1200 and a 54mbit wireless card. If I lived there, I would buy one with no hesitation.
Anyway I hope some of you find this info useful, if there's anything I forgot I'll post it later.
peace!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-07-22 20:37 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-07-22 20:38 ]</font>
Laptop buying guide
I find it very usefull. I am in the middle of finding out, if I want to save up money for a laptop/Magma combo or another heavy PC for "the road". There was one thing, that wasn't clear to me: "I've seen similar reports with higher-spec Dells like the Inspiron 8200 as well." Similar to what? To your results or to the other peoples IBM results? Ever done a masterverb test by the way? I looked thru all posts in this forum talking about Magma, and Subhuman said, they had bad performance, but maybe he used the wrong laptop?
Sorry, I meant that the higher-spec Dell's also seem to have problems getting down to the lowest latencies.
I have never done a masterverb test (I don't have the patience for such stuff), and I doubt it would perform as well as a desktop machine in such a test. However, my Dell 8100 gives me virtually no problems - maybe an occasional PCI overflow once every 2 months or something. However, there is a problem getting down to very low latencies.
The bottom line is the Magma's are extremely good. They would have to be to be able to run Creamware and Pro Tools DSP cards, and digital video processing cards. I will soon have the opportunity to test out a UAD-1 in my Magma too... I'll post the results here.
peace
I have never done a masterverb test (I don't have the patience for such stuff), and I doubt it would perform as well as a desktop machine in such a test. However, my Dell 8100 gives me virtually no problems - maybe an occasional PCI overflow once every 2 months or something. However, there is a problem getting down to very low latencies.
The bottom line is the Magma's are extremely good. They would have to be to be able to run Creamware and Pro Tools DSP cards, and digital video processing cards. I will soon have the opportunity to test out a UAD-1 in my Magma too... I'll post the results here.
peace
the most important is the graphic ram.
Then all stuff like processor (i wouldn't go under 1.8 ghz) , the DDR RAM.
Why ps/2 ? usb is standard everywhere and mouses are usb now. so are the numeical pads (for shortcuts : you cannot remote control your apps with shift+number. it won't work).
I advise that you have pcmcia, or directly firewire : for audio recording. do not record often on the main disk.
30 gb disk minimum.
Wireless network ? well, why not, but a standard network for rj45 is fine too.
Here toshiba staellite 2410/604 (cheapest i found, and still very much in the competition for the price i got it: the onboard soundcard is neat (48.000 output, but the Mic is not available on this model. only.
If you intend to begin with the onboard soundcard : make sure it is full duplex (some HP computers are not) and that it has a working Mic In (bring something in the store, as they often know nothing about the stuff they are selling in the big marts... they think athlon 1800 is 1.8 ghz....).
I have a GFORCE 16 mb ram (i would prefer ATI smoothest rendering) : 16 mb ram is fine, but i would love 32 mb gfx ram. i am sure it would stop the small cracks and pops i hear when i move vstis around in my huge project files (on this laptop i use fruity loops, which is a cpu/ram hog).
good luck.
so remember :
graphic ram
processor the fastest as you can
DDR
may be full duplex and mic in for the sound card.
Possibility to add Firewire.
the rest is less important.
Then all stuff like processor (i wouldn't go under 1.8 ghz) , the DDR RAM.
Why ps/2 ? usb is standard everywhere and mouses are usb now. so are the numeical pads (for shortcuts : you cannot remote control your apps with shift+number. it won't work).
I advise that you have pcmcia, or directly firewire : for audio recording. do not record often on the main disk.
30 gb disk minimum.
Wireless network ? well, why not, but a standard network for rj45 is fine too.
Here toshiba staellite 2410/604 (cheapest i found, and still very much in the competition for the price i got it: the onboard soundcard is neat (48.000 output, but the Mic is not available on this model. only.
If you intend to begin with the onboard soundcard : make sure it is full duplex (some HP computers are not) and that it has a working Mic In (bring something in the store, as they often know nothing about the stuff they are selling in the big marts... they think athlon 1800 is 1.8 ghz....).
I have a GFORCE 16 mb ram (i would prefer ATI smoothest rendering) : 16 mb ram is fine, but i would love 32 mb gfx ram. i am sure it would stop the small cracks and pops i hear when i move vstis around in my huge project files (on this laptop i use fruity loops, which is a cpu/ram hog).
good luck.
so remember :
graphic ram
processor the fastest as you can
DDR
may be full duplex and mic in for the sound card.
Possibility to add Firewire.
the rest is less important.
Because I don't like USB - it uses CPU time. There's nothing wrong with PS/2 so I really can't see why it's necessary to phase it out. In any case, why waste your USB ports with keyboards and mice?Why ps/2 ? usb is standard everywhere and mouses are usb now. so are the numeical pads (for shortcuts : you cannot remote control your apps with shift+number. it won't work).
Not if you're using the laptop as a desktop replacement. The cardbus controller is *extremely* important as I have found. The Magma and Pulsar requires serious bandwidth. In fact, if you want to do anything reliably without glitches using a PCMCIA audio solution, a decent cardbus is a must.so remember :
graphic ram
processor the fastest as you can
DDR
may be full duplex and mic in for the sound card.
Possibility to add Firewire.
the rest is less important.
It seems you're using the onboard audio - while you may be happy to do this, it is not an option for me.
peace
well, as you said there are less and less ps/2 included in laptops, so i meant there's no reason to struggle for ps/2. Another thing is that mices are more and more usb and they come with a ps/2 adaptator, which is not reliable as i just experienced. On one of my computer, which mouse is usb, it doesn't work anymore with the adaptator. Direct connect with usb works, and so does direct ps/2 connect.I really can't see why it's necessary to phase it out. In any case, why waste your USB ports with keyboards and mice?
err, well myself i use a Noah EX with the new (beta) asio driver it almost like a SFP (actually better latency for vstis). It gives me a second remote computer workstation when i didn't expect it to do thisNot if you're using the laptop as a desktop replacement. The cardbus controller is *extremely* important as I have found. The Magma and Pulsar requires serious bandwidth. In fact, if you want to do anything reliably without glitches using a PCMCIA audio solution, a decent cardbus is a must.
It seems you're using the onboard audio - while you may be happy to do this, it is not an option for me.
peace
and all this thru a simple usb 1 port. it's quite incredible.sure it's USB1 is not for big audio projects, and having tested both firewire and USB 2, i can say that firewire has to be preffered. If it's not on the pc (most cases) you should be able to extend it thru a pcmcia firewire card.Sure I forgot to mention about pcmcia ports, of course it's important but i don't know how to tell if one is good or not.
about onboard soundcard : it can be useful sometimes. and i think it's a minimum that it is full duplex. especially if you are a musician. you never know what can happen so it's an extra that i think must not be overlooked.
just my own view.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rrominet4 on 2003-07-23 08:13 ]</font>
yes, you make some valid points. It's nice to see that the Noah is working nice over USB. But yeah, I doubt it would be able to cope with lots of channels.
The PS/2 thing is a matter of choice I guess.. I personally would hunt around to get a PS/2 one.. but not everyone would. I just gave the info for people to be aware... I myself was a bit shocked that PS/2 is being phased out, as I really don't see the point. Incidentally, I use a Microsoft optical with USB->PS2 adapter and it has worked fine for over 2 years now, and continues to do so.
Also, a good way to check what PCMCIA controller a laptop uses is to check the driver download page for the laptop. Alternatively, if the laptop is available in retail outlets, you can easily just go check out Device Manager. Failing this, a simple email to the manufacturer should do the trick. As long as it's anything but a Ricoh controller you *should* be okay.
peace!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-07-23 08:30 ]</font>
The PS/2 thing is a matter of choice I guess.. I personally would hunt around to get a PS/2 one.. but not everyone would. I just gave the info for people to be aware... I myself was a bit shocked that PS/2 is being phased out, as I really don't see the point. Incidentally, I use a Microsoft optical with USB->PS2 adapter and it has worked fine for over 2 years now, and continues to do so.
Also, a good way to check what PCMCIA controller a laptop uses is to check the driver download page for the laptop. Alternatively, if the laptop is available in retail outlets, you can easily just go check out Device Manager. Failing this, a simple email to the manufacturer should do the trick. As long as it's anything but a Ricoh controller you *should* be okay.
peace!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-07-23 08:30 ]</font>
No you said this because you are badI personally would hunt around to get a PS/2 one.. but not everyone would. I just gave the info for people to be aware...
(hehe, just joking, i'm tired today)yep unfortunately. above 12 mono tracks, you get glitches. But with vstis, if you output to stereo usb in noah mixer, the limit is just the one of the cpu/ram.... I am still astonished that I could run vstis without any latency, all remote from the main computer (sfp) that send midi to noah, which itself echoes midi to usb until fruityloops or cubase sx and all is perfect for playing and recording through midi.It's nice to see that the Noah is working nice over USB. But yeah, I doubt it would be able to cope with lots of channels.
In relation to firewire, most my friends who have a laptop use a matrox firewire HD and the laptop has replaced the desktop in many cases (i guess because their laptop is more powerful than their desktop, more recent cpu), and it can run a good amount of tracks (but they are on mac which have a firewire plug, and i don't know if it goes thru pci, or if a pcmcia firewire card has the same perf.
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rrominet4 on 2003-07-23 12:07 ]</font>
I've yet to do any concrete tests on this, but copying files from my firewire drive to a friend's (desktop) mac was noticably faster.
It could be just that the firewire controllers I've used so far on PC are mediocre, but I would be interested to know how the various onboard firewire chipsets are routed within different motherboards/chipset types. On the mac I'm sure it's pretty optimally routed.
peace
It could be just that the firewire controllers I've used so far on PC are mediocre, but I would be interested to know how the various onboard firewire chipsets are routed within different motherboards/chipset types. On the mac I'm sure it's pretty optimally routed.
peace
Has anyone checked out the ProStar line of laptops? They have all the premium features and I have heard they are very powerful and run excellent as audio computers (by the way, they are the same as the Alienware laptops that sell for twice as much, just a different tag.) The dissadvantage is that they are chuncky computers that use the a regular P4 (they may have models that use other processors as well - I am not sure).
I found this web site that sells them: http://www.portablez.com/
I found this web site that sells them: http://www.portablez.com/
This is the laptop I'm shopping for:
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais ... e&pmod=P25
I'm scoping the P25-S508 in the middle. It's got about all I could want for. I think the mobo is the new Intel 865PE+ICH5 and uses an Intel Cardbus controller. If/when I get it I'll pass on a full report.
SAm
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais ... e&pmod=P25
I'm scoping the P25-S508 in the middle. It's got about all I could want for. I think the mobo is the new Intel 865PE+ICH5 and uses an Intel Cardbus controller. If/when I get it I'll pass on a full report.
SAm
Yo the link doesn't work. Is this the Toshiba you said you were returning in the laptop thread in the Tech Talk forum? I'm really wanting to get a laptop system fo my Pulsar 2 so any info is appreciated. Also forgive me cause I'm a bit slow but I have no idea some of these terms you guys are throwing around i.e. "Intel 865PE+ICH5" ??? what is the benefit of getting this. I assume it is a motherboard?On 2003-07-27 17:11, dehuszar wrote:
This is the laptop I'm shopping for:
http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais ... e&pmod=P25
I'm scoping the P25-S508 in the middle. It's got about all I could want for. I think the mobo is the new Intel 865PE+ICH5 and uses an Intel Cardbus controller. If/when I get it I'll pass on a full report.
SAm
Yes, I returned this one. I've also tested the Compaq X1000 and the Intel based wide aspect laptop from Gateway. No dice on either. I'm waiting for a Dell Precision M60 to land in my lap. These guys take forever to build (as I'm sure they're both busy and understaffed). I'll post a full report to both threads when I've recevied it and done some testing.
Hope that helps,
Sam
Hope that helps,
Sam
Well it looks like I'm going to be able to puchase the laptop very soon along with the MAgma setup! I need help here on what to get so it all works correctly! I'm tired of lugging my tower system everywhere and afraid it might get damaged in the process!Should I call Creamware directly to find out what they suggest?
I've talked with Paul on this... there's nothing that they can recommend beyond what's already been tested (which thus far has been either, old equipment, or new stuff that doesn't work).
I'm getting impatient with Dell. I sorta knew this would happen, but you buy from the store and you get corner-cut consumer laptops, you go to a direct vendor and you get service reps who ride the shortbus to work and build times that take ages.
Ho hum. It'll arrive soon I guess. I just want to get back to work.
Unless you want to try your luck on a few models I'd say wait until I've received this one. Either way, make sure you get a good return policy agreed upon before purchase. I would've been assed out $300 if I hadn't made specific arrangements with the CompUSA manager before I bought that Toshiba. 15% restocking fees are a bitch on ~$2000 purchases.
Sam
I'm getting impatient with Dell. I sorta knew this would happen, but you buy from the store and you get corner-cut consumer laptops, you go to a direct vendor and you get service reps who ride the shortbus to work and build times that take ages.
Ho hum. It'll arrive soon I guess. I just want to get back to work.
Unless you want to try your luck on a few models I'd say wait until I've received this one. Either way, make sure you get a good return policy agreed upon before purchase. I would've been assed out $300 if I hadn't made specific arrangements with the CompUSA manager before I bought that Toshiba. 15% restocking fees are a bitch on ~$2000 purchases.
Sam
Cool man. Let's cross our fingers and hope this setup works. So this is a Dell Precision M60 setup? I'm just curious why you're going with Dell. Have you tried all the others and none of them work? I'm just wary about ordering from big impersonal companies like Dell. Why is it that the card is SO incompatible with all these new laptops? This is rediculous. Maybe I should just get a new tower system but I'd really like something I could use live. I also want to be able to take my laptop/magma/Pulsar system with me to different locations to work on projects with different people. Does anyone besides me do this? I can't stand keeping my setup in one room for some reason. Sometimes I need a change of scenery for inspiration!
Dehuzar: could you also list how you customized your system if you have time? I'm quite curious as to what is essential and what is not cause I am not well versed on the tech side of things. (I guess I better learn fast!)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grizzly on 2003-08-27 16:26 ]</font>
Dehuzar: could you also list how you customized your system if you have time? I'm quite curious as to what is essential and what is not cause I am not well versed on the tech side of things. (I guess I better learn fast!)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Grizzly on 2003-08-27 16:26 ]</font>
I think the problem is the Magma box.. it is a very high end piece of kit, and requires decent PCI (i.e. PCMCIA) bandwidth to run, as well as a good cardbus controller.
Also, most laptops available are shitty things designed for internet surfing and word processing.. you need to hunt pretty hard to find one that's suitable for realtime performance applications like audio.
I think Dell stuff is pretty well engineered - my old Inspiron 8100 (P3 1.2 gHz, 512mb ram, intel 815 chipset) works flawlessly with the Magma and two Pulsar1 cards (which aren't even as efficient as the 2nd generation hardware). Still, I think the right Toshiba or IBM would be better.
peace
peace
Also, most laptops available are shitty things designed for internet surfing and word processing.. you need to hunt pretty hard to find one that's suitable for realtime performance applications like audio.
I think Dell stuff is pretty well engineered - my old Inspiron 8100 (P3 1.2 gHz, 512mb ram, intel 815 chipset) works flawlessly with the Magma and two Pulsar1 cards (which aren't even as efficient as the 2nd generation hardware). Still, I think the right Toshiba or IBM would be better.
peace
peace
As I mentioned in my original post, the 'realtime performance' aspect of a laptop is something of a voodoo science, it is totally impossible to judge before buying.
Yes, it annoys me too, but this is the reality we live in... lots of cheap shitty PC laptops, with a few decent ones here and there, or an underpowered Mac Powerbook...
When I bought my Dell, i bought it used (it was just under a year old). There were faster machines around at the time (1.6 to 2.0 ghz P4's) but I went with one that I *knew* would work (a friend had taken the plunge already with a Magma and a Dell Inspiron 8000, which was essentially the same architecture as the 8100).
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-08-27 20:58 ]</font>
Yes, it annoys me too, but this is the reality we live in... lots of cheap shitty PC laptops, with a few decent ones here and there, or an underpowered Mac Powerbook...
When I bought my Dell, i bought it used (it was just under a year old). There were faster machines around at the time (1.6 to 2.0 ghz P4's) but I went with one that I *knew* would work (a friend had taken the plunge already with a Magma and a Dell Inspiron 8000, which was essentially the same architecture as the 8100).
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-08-27 20:58 ]</font>