My Creamware fantasy

sinix · Post by **sinix** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:25 pm

Creamware, please build this and make my fantasy come true!

A bit of background:

I'm an *avid* Creamware fan, I love the products and current crop of 3rd party developers. In fact, I'm happy enough that if Creamware never released another SFP update, I really wouldn't care either way. However, solid OS X drivers for the Mac crowd would be awesome, but I'm currently an Intel / WinXP kinda guy! I've been with the platform for over two (almost three) years and have seen it mature into something very special.

BUT (there's always a but), I'm getting tired of dealing with all these different PCI cards. For my personal taste, I think Firewire (400 or 800) and/or USB2 (whichever works better - I don't care) is a great alternative. The current PCI standard is a dead old horse, a pain and although PCI-X will be out next year, it'll hardly be a standard anytime soon.

My "dream" Creamware system would consist of the following:

1. Two versions - either 15 or 30 DSP systems based on the current SHARC chips we all know and love... no need for fancy new hardware. The current platform in this sense rocks. If possible, expandable on board DDR ram (PC style) up to 512mb or more so we don't have to rely on system memory (and shuffling it across the bus) anymore.

2. A 19" 2U rack mountable box - high quality casing, very solidly built. LED channel / midi indicators on front. Dedicated headphone output on front with volume knob. Possibly one pair of midi i/o on front as well. Some sort of cool little light up logo to show it off too!

3. On the back: 8 ch 1/4" analog in - 8ch 1/4" analog out. The first 4 ch's of both in and out also have XLR connections, either one or the other is used, but not both at the same time.

4. 8 ch ADAT i/o - 2 ch SPDIF i/o also on the back

5. Atleast one midi port for in and out on the back. Multiple out's would be welcomed.

6. Either Firewire 400, 800 or USB 2 connection to the computer - which ever works best.

7. SFP 4 would be great, but not needed. Just improve and refine what we have concentrating on further driver and graphical improvements.

Am I missing anything? Is something like this possible? Some people might like MIC Pre's, but I think that might be best left to something dedicated. I don't know about you guys, but I'd be willing to sell off my current setup and pay a nice chunk of change for something like this. You have to pay for quality and I fully know this wouldn't be cheap. Maybe $2.5-3k for 15 DSP, another $1k for 30 DSP.

Please be nice, it's only my dream thinking out loud!

- sinix

[ This Message was edited by: sinix on 2003-07-07 23:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: sinix on 2003-07-07 23:49 ]

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:46 am

Both FireWire and USB2 (even FireWire 800) are slower than PCI, so I don't see how that would make SFP better than the way it is now. Noah already takes care of a lot of the portability options, plus it's also a 2x2 I/O box. An external SFP will never be as versitle as the internal version because the protocals are not fast enough.

Shayne

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:53 am

I agree, I think that pci offers the best solution for routing audio & midi to & from the dsps.

BUT, how about:
Dsp chips that are 10x as fast with code that prevents the phase problems between chips & boards, onboard ram pool on the card so that algorithms requiring ram take neither a latency nor bandwidth hit from the pci bus, and while we're at it might as well make it pci-x compatible since pci will be gone by end of next year.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:51 am

sinix, I think we're gonna see this remotely connected unit as NOAH further evolves, at least that's how I understood the 'further integration into future SFP versions'.
But I'm not shure if the integratio of analog IOs makes (economic) sense. We're considering high end IOs, don't we ? Those make up a significant amount of costs and many users doing 'pure computer' productions wouldn't like the price tag.
Of course I'd appreciate that CW includes half an A16ultra for free but that's probably also a dream

You cannot simply connect regular RAM to the multi-ported onchip cache memory of the DSPs. Imho at least a specialized memory controller would be required which would also mean a complete redesign of the current hardware. But I'm not in chip design business, so don't take it for granted

@valis: that is definetely the wrong way to fight timing issues. Make it faster, so the inaccuracies aren't noticed as much though still present.

that reads like a very familiar strategy...
It's more efficient to take care of the proper execution of code. I guess it's just one of the details which always are overlooked in early developement stages.

cheers, Tom

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 9:54 am

On analog Device specs, they state that memory control are available for those chips, in format of stadard sdram, or DDR.

I think it is not that difficult implementing these based on actual board, more a question of costs at the time of pulsar1 creation... Lot less a constraint now also...

Memory onboard would permit stuff like a complete SFP via firewire for example...

As for Noah, i agree that adding a bunch of IOs to it won't nessarily appeal to all, but providing some connectivity, like mLan or adat ios (i mean inputs/outputs, not only outputs) would add considerable value to it.

I can easily imagine a Yamaha 01X mLan mixer with a noah connecting to it using it mLan firewire connection, expanding the mixer possibilities with effects 'a la SFP', while still providing great synths sounds to any channel of the console. Also giving access to automation for all those parameters from console automation system.

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:04 am

Using DSP chips that are 10x as fast doesn't stop the phase issues, but it does allow 10x more dsp at your disposal.

...AND having chips whose code allows for correcting of the timing issues that causes phase errors between dsp chips so there is no hand-correction needed. I believe both solutions are actually available on the market in current dsp chips, Creamware just needs to make use of them (the current chips have no way to compensate for timing differences between 2 chips so if a device overlaps more than 1 dsp and processes more than 1 channel you will likely get phase errors).

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2003-07-08 12:05 ]

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:28 am

Using a Magma chassis, you can essentially do this. You wouldn't necessarily get to send everything down USB2 or Firewire, but if Noah, or the A16U ends up with some kind of hot plug i/o beyond Z-Link, you might be able to get around it.

Cetainly, you can attach it to a desktop or laptop, using a Magma while not having it locked up inside the case... I admit though, it's not a standalone solution. But if you boot up a laptop, use no software besides SFP and have your controllers setup in advance, you could probably just close the lid and go as if it were running on it's own.

As far as memory is concerned, I seem to recall that the Scope cards have 32MB of memory on board. I also seem to recall this being the reason why the Scope/SP cards aren't nearly as susceptible to PCI overflows, as SFP puts Reverb info into RAM which is right next door as opposed to sending it across the PCI bus. This is pure recollection so I would appreciate someone else's input on this.

Sam

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:15 pm

I seem to remember that Kim at D&M said that the onboard SCOPE memory isn't used by devices. I could have remembered wrong, though.

As for phase problems, I once had a horrible phase problem with the ModII where different voices were completely out of phase in wierd ways. It was probably a DSP thing.

Shayne

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:46 am

On 2003-07-08 13:15, Shayne White wrote:
I seem to remember that Kim at D&M said that the onboard SCOPE memory isn't used by devices. I could have remembered wrong, though.

There's nothing wrong with your memory

There's no way for the current version of SFP and /DP to access the onboard ram

Kim.

Ashkenazy · Post by **Ashkenazy** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 2:48 pm

The Scope Fusion Platform makes it possible to have everything in one computer instead of having a huge amount of external gear (midi modules, effects, mixers etc. etc.). Now someone is saying that he wants everything out of the computer again.
I still prefer taking as much advantage of the computer as possible, instead of getting the audiosystems out of the computer.

sinix · Post by **sinix** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:23 pm

On 2003-07-21 15:48, Ashkenazy wrote:
The Scope Fusion Platform makes it possible to have everything in one computer instead of having a huge amount of external gear (midi modules, effects, mixers etc. etc.). Now someone is saying that he wants everything out of the computer again.

Having a couple pulsar boards in a 2u rack with 2x the analog I/O hardly equals, "having a huge amount of external gear (midi modules, effects, mixers etc. etc.)".

How is this any different than having to use an external ad/da converter box which a lot of us have anyway?

I see it as simply a means to have more DSP power, more I/O and more flexibilty (laptop usage without an extra Magma chasis)!

It's whatever you like I guess..

- sinix

[ This Message was edited by: sinix on 2003-07-21 19:31 ]