I am really confused now ...

proximo · Post by **proximo** » Fri May 30, 2003 12:28 pm

Well I just thought I would share this with you guys.
Apart for some exception, most companies have given up the manufacturing of real analog synth for around 15 to 20 years.
Since then our ears are given sounds made by sample player through software synthesis, and not so long ago Virtual Analog (as opposed to sample player).
Since the appearing of VA, I thought, that's it, we can have real synth now without a dead waveform sitting inside, like in the old time.
I have now a lot of VA like : clavia nord lead, roland JP-8000, SH-32, Novation K-Station, all creamware synths including MINIMAX, and VSTs.
Among all of them, the MINIMAX is the one which impressed me the most : Fat sound, and no aliasing, which is a new step towards real analog.
Until 2 weeks ago ... I decided to buy a real analog : a Roland Super Jupiter (MKS-80).
Well .. I had never heard a synth which is so BIG, FAT, THICK, RICH and WARM !!!!
Even the MINIMAX does not compete... nothing that I own or have heard using VA.
And they all go out through the same audio path .. the MKS-80 should have a lost in quality as it goes trough a A/D and D/A conversion.
Fantastic and devastating bass, rich PWM strings etc, and when used in unison mode .. Ho my God !

Now that I have the real thing, I can compare, and I am confused and a bit annoyed at all the fuss about VA and how it is sold like a perfect copy ...
I don't know why, but it does not sound the same at all .. something like it .. but not like it ... it is in fact .. cold... now
I know.

If any of you guys have a real thing .. let me know your impressions.

Peace.
Proximo.

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Fri May 30, 2003 1:38 pm

I know!!!!
I tried a Roland JX 10 (MKS 70) the other day. I was qurious if it still sounded as good as i remember or if it was just my imagination.

It almost blew my head off!!!
It sounded so good.
Unfortunatly i couldn't afford it.

Post by **garyb** » Fri May 30, 2003 8:01 pm

and that synth is a DIGITAL analog....

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sat May 31, 2003 3:43 am

Proximo, could you post some kind of mp3 ?

Just curious and to know if I should weep or not ...

There are plenty of threads where humans disagree on fat, warm, cold so I tend to only trust my pathetic ears !

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:36 am

This is the never ending conversation of always... Interesting nevertheless... but very subjective. Everything suits different needs. All synths are good for some work. It is more than natural and expected that something costing 30 times more expensive, is has a better sound quality. No surprise to me really.

[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2003-05-31 09:37 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat May 31, 2003 9:48 am

If you want to sound analog, get something analog.

Or as one of my guru's said:

If it sounds analog, let us know and we'll try to fix it.

I wonder when people will stop asking for software emulations of hardware stuff. After all these years of digital revolution, I can't believe we're still trying to emulate old machines. What about new sounds and techniques!?

proximo · Post by **proximo** » Sat May 31, 2003 12:37 pm

@Nestor,

"This is the never ending conversation of always... " : Well sorry for bothering you again...
"but very subjective.." : no I disagree completely .. it is not when you have means of comparison and I do, unless you have hearing problems.

"Everything suits different needs. All synths are good for some work.." : I never said you can't make interesting music with other type of synths, you've missed my point.

"something costing 30 times more expensive, is has a better sound quality :" .. Well I paid 850€ for it, and for this quality of sound and features nothing competes on the new market, at least that I am aware of.

I was not trying to convince you, I just wanted to share my experience.
I tried to program the same type of patch on all my gears, and the MKS-80 had the thickest sound, it was so obvious when changing from one synth to another.

But anyway guys, I am not going to launch a polemic about the subject, cause that was really not my intention.

@decimator

Here are some sound examples.
There is no EQ on the audio patch, just a chorus and delay/reverb on some sound (none of them has EQ).
the file is 34meg...

Sound1.wav : sequenced double saw detuned
The HPF, VCF, Resonance are tweaked.

Sound2.wav : solo mode, and VCF modulated by velocity.

Sound3.wav : Lead with saw and square.

Sound4.wav : PWM stings.

Sound5.wav : another sound.

Sound6.wav : mode polyphonic

Sound7.wav : a bass.

Sound8.wav : basses

Here : http://www.auzzie.net/files/MKS-80_test.rar

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Sat May 31, 2003 12:44 pm

Quote baryB
"and that synth is a DIGITAL analog"

All of the sound generation on that machine is analog. The oscillators,filters,vca,env etc.
However the oscillators are digitally controlled.
But don't confuse it with a NordLead or any other VA for that matter. Make no mistake. The Jx10 is mighty.

Of course you knew that

but there might be others whom i must set straight.

BTW. there is absolutly nothing wrong with a NordLead but it doesn't sound like an analog Roland. Only analog Rolands do that.

And i do agree with Atomic that they should really try to create something new instead of making poor replicas of something old.

Which btw they do. Virsyn Cube for ex. That one is going to be cool.
And Big Tick Rhino in it's latest incarnation can take single cycle waveforms and convert them into additive synthesis.
And DiscoDSP is working on an additive synth as well.

And so on. We live in very exiting times indeed. Vive la revolution!!!!

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sat May 31, 2003 1:03 pm

Hey fellow Proximo… be in peace, I’m not getting anything against you… nor your post bothers me, not at all in fact. All I wanted to say is that this topic has come through over and over again in the past 5 years, many times, believe me, perhaps 100 times in different ways…

You are new to this forum so perhaps you are not aware that we are all accustomed to tell each other what we think, very frankly, but in any way we offend or mistreat any poster. So understand I was talking with you, not competing or something like that…

I say sorry anyway, in case you misunderstood me.

I think your post is quite interesting, we all love synthesizers in here everyday a little more…

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Sat May 31, 2003 1:04 pm

Just tried the sound examples and i just love the strings in sound 4!!!
Sound 5 and 6 were really cool as well.

Could you pleeeeeeaaaase upload them with only a single note playing for about 10 sec. so i can sample them!

If you do i promise to loop them, make STS programs out of them and share them with the rest of the Z community.

I am in a really good mood today. The wheather here in Oslo is great and were not spoiled with that

Post by **garyb** » Sat May 31, 2003 1:04 pm

the jx-10 IS a great synth.really,there are so many fantastic sound sources.the real crime was when companies needed to sell more synths,that they convinced people that the older stuff wasn't any good anymore.good sounds are always good.

the real problem with old synths is also what makes them so great.(and what also makes drums flutes and guitars cool)they make one sound,but really well.if you want lots of different sounds,you need lots of machines.what a headache.

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Sat May 31, 2003 2:27 pm

On 2003-05-31 10:48, at0mic wrote:
If you want to sound analog, get something analog.

Or as one of my guru's said:
If it sounds analog, let us know and we'll try to fix it.
I wonder when people will stop asking for software emulations of hardware stuff. After all these years of digital revolution, I can't believe we're still trying to emulate old machines. What about new sounds and techniques!?

Are you suggesting that you don't appreciate Mr. Bowen's Pro-One? Or the MiniMax, or VinCo?

Teasing of course.

From a big volume retail business, the remarketing of older sounds is easier to profit on than some bizarro new fangled sound-makers, as the older sounds already have esteem and can be sold inexpensively to those who could never afford the original gear. The newer sounding stuff (at least in terms of plugins and the like) tends to build popularity grass roots style as it takes people a while to figure out what's possible under the hood. I think Absynth is a good example of this.

I have to say that, at least a good chunk of OUR 3rd Party builders are heading in the right direction. Mr. Hummel makes some pretty bitchin synths which make noises that I've heard no others make. DeFex too.

Speaking of which, where the hell is DeFex? He was becoming quite a prolific producer of off the wall synths! It seems like he's dropped of the face of the Planet (pun intended). Hopefully he's got his nose buried in some deep and moving synth project. I've been getting that synth buying itch.

Sam

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:41 am

Thanks for the samples Proximo !
Impressed indeed ...
I'am opened for both " old " and " new " sounds and " old " sounds I cannot recreate with existing virtuals synths are thus new !

On this subject, I'd like to hear old modulars !

aMo · Post by **aMo** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:09 am

Anyone have an old Doepfer lying around?

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:17 am

I must say these samples sound very nice indeed, but I don't think it sounds really more "big, fat, thick or rich" than the Pro One for instance (even though it's not really a compareable synth in terms of sound), or my Nord Rack (again different sound, but stack up those programs and fatness guaranteed).

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2003-06-01 10:26 ]

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:48 am

i got a tuba, and i can't seem to program anything to sound like it

proximo · Post by **proximo** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 5:53 pm

@Nestor : hey thanks for your words, but you are right, and I may have been taken away by the passion

@Jupiter8 : ok I will do that if you like, I'll contact you next week.

Cheers,
Proximo

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:14 pm

No pro bro =

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:51 pm

That would be excellent. Thank you.

proximo · Post by **proximo** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 10:07 am

Hi peeps,

Ok, for those who are interested, here is the STS program of the MKS-80 PWM strings.
It's 18Mo zipped.
I sampled it from C1 to C6, and opened the filter a bit to give space to the STS filter, so that we can make it brighter/darker.
It is so great to have it on more that 8 voices polyphony !

I have no idea how long it will last on the site, and if it is worth it, we could put it somewhere else ?

Enjoy : http://www.auzzie.net/files/MKS-80_strings.zip

Cheers,
Proximo

[ This Message was edited by: proximo on 2003-06-03 11:17 ]

[ This Message was edited by: proximo on 2003-06-03 11:19 ]

[ This Message was edited by: proximo on 2003-06-03 11:22 ]