Hi,
I´ve some questions about surround producing with creamware products.
Did anybody produced some surround work with the surround mixers?
How does it function? I´ve only 1 stereo analog output and the ADAT´s.
Has the creamware OS a surround en/decoder or only the mixer?
What a shame, with the new surround mixer I´ve got no EQ´s after all, to have EQ´s I must use the old BigMixer, but no surround.
I haven´t got the Propack.
So, has anybody surround expirience with Pulsar?
Cheers
Creamware Surround
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ChrisWerner
- Posts: 1738
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany/Bavaria
- Contact:
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ChrisWerner
- Posts: 1738
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany/Bavaria
- Contact:
I am also interested in encoded surround sound, possibly for the new WDM format with surround 5.1. Do I need surround to mix for this? I think Cubase SX supoorts surround sound but I have no idea of how to mix for it, encode for it and set up the Creamware modules. I have an A16 for analog outs I could route to a surround system. I know it's possible but is it difficult?
I was interested into setting up a home-cooked surround system. you first need a true sub woofer. Also it is very technical, you must mix at 84dB (if i remeber well,) and never touch the volume again until you finish the mix. This means you must have equipment to measure dB in yout room, and several other highly technical/difficult stuff, especially in home studio.
It's different if you are a professional though, if you are asked to do it.
You should buy a book about 5.1 and see how to mix because it has not much to do with stereo mixing (and you must permanently check stereo compatibility). Moreover, there's no way you do the master yourself, you must go to a professional.
If you don't follow all this, you 'll waste your time.
Get a book about it, many are cheap and a good investment for your mixing knowledge...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2002-10-24 05:05 ]</font>
It's different if you are a professional though, if you are asked to do it.
You should buy a book about 5.1 and see how to mix because it has not much to do with stereo mixing (and you must permanently check stereo compatibility). Moreover, there's no way you do the master yourself, you must go to a professional.
If you don't follow all this, you 'll waste your time.
Get a book about it, many are cheap and a good investment for your mixing knowledge...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2002-10-24 05:05 ]</font>
I think that what SpaceF is talking about is mixing/mastering for motion pictures.
For music on surround DVD's there are, as allways, no rules what-so-ever...
You still have to consider the playback system offcourse, just as we used to check for mono compatibility in stereo mixes. (You know, back in the 90'es)
Kim.
For music on surround DVD's there are, as allways, no rules what-so-ever...
You still have to consider the playback system offcourse, just as we used to check for mono compatibility in stereo mixes. (You know, back in the 90'es)
Kim.
I made some researches lately on surround, and also got advices from people who know better than me, as they actually do some surround mixing.
Yes, it sounds very complicated, but that's to get a professional result "at a theatre near you". You may not be looking for this.
Books ? I 've seen some of them are thin, and should be enough for getting basic information before going further.
On the other hand, I was thinking of a surround setup, for the pleasure of watching DVD, and found many 5.1 speakers that have discrete inputs (independant for each speakers) : It means that I can plug them directly on my A16, as they are amplified, and experience surround mixing for fun, taking care not to explode those cheap speakers with the high dynamic of SFP (it happened to me already, with a bass, long time ago).
So i might get one of those systems :
The speakers system I'm thinking of are "low end" and cheap (between 129 and 180 €) :
** Philips (i don't find the reference now, but it may be the cheaper philips system, with a *wooden* subwoofer)
** Altec lansing 251 (has volume for each single speaker)
** creatives. although i'll try to avoid them. I know the 5100 and its crap, even for playing dvd.
I understood it is important to have a real subwoofer : if i remember well 5.1 standard says that subwoofer response should be 20Hz to 80 hz (or 120?). This means that it produces real subbasses (which are vibrations "heard" in your abdomen, n ot on your hears : if you use an equalizer or filter on a "normal" monitor, you will achieve the bass impression, but not the true subbasses (what are the abilities of the cheap systems mentionned above ? i don't know).
You have more expensive systems, with better quality. But myself, i dont want to invest in a studio subwoofer and satelites, which i find justified if you seriously intend to do surround mixing.
Discreet inputs : speakers are fed by 3 stereo mini jacks : as a speaker is mono, this gives you 6 mono channels, each of them going to the 6 speakers of 5.1 systems. This is directly usable with the SFP surround mixers !
So where to connect them ?
I've looked the situation where I can avoid a dolby decoder, many cards include one already and it's easier to connect/disconnect for listening/mixing.
For listening, many cards do have discrete ouputs, I think of Sound Blaster Audigy or Extigy. There are others but here we are talking fun and low price for occasional experience. Avoid anything that does not have discrete outputs (Edirol/Roland UA3D) because it means there's no decoder included.
For mixing, I would use my A16, using adaptator to make the 3 stereo mini jacks as 6 independant mono jack. This could allow which also allows to switch surround/stereo (but again, what kind of mix can you do on those speakers who are like Hifi systems!!! really that would be just for fun).
A system like that would mainly allow a nice dvd playing experience, + the abilty to play with the surround modules for SFP.
But that's THE problem for mixing : you must have discrete ouputs on you SFP system, and I think that is possible only if you have A8/A16, or 3 cards like Pulsar or Luna.
Myself, i think i will try that, keeping in mind that my main objectif is to play DVDs in surround, but choosing a speaker system that would allow me to have fun if i whish one day with SFP, and test multipattern stereo recording (but that's another thing).
I think i'll get a philips system, because it looks like the sound can be better, second choice being altec lansing 251.
Someone is talking about USB surround soundcard ; that's EXTIGY (creative) and is not directly connected to you SFP surround outputs, but USB, reading a coded signal from your DVD. So i would use that on a laptop for games or DVD, but forget about using it with SFP : latency is 40 or 400 ms (it's USB 1. there are review on the net). On creative website, you will find ZERO information about recording with Extigy. In you SFP system, you'd better use a audgy, but it's not directly connectable to SFP.....
I read that USB 2 allows 400 mb/s transfer ? I note that Extigy is not available anymore on many shops. Creative has certainly something for christmas, but all their 5.1 system seem to go digital so i wonder if there will still be discrete outputs...
ok, that's it, i'm sure it will help.... Good luck.
(edited for additional info
)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2002-11-05 15:31 ]</font>
Yes, it sounds very complicated, but that's to get a professional result "at a theatre near you". You may not be looking for this.
Books ? I 've seen some of them are thin, and should be enough for getting basic information before going further.
On the other hand, I was thinking of a surround setup, for the pleasure of watching DVD, and found many 5.1 speakers that have discrete inputs (independant for each speakers) : It means that I can plug them directly on my A16, as they are amplified, and experience surround mixing for fun, taking care not to explode those cheap speakers with the high dynamic of SFP (it happened to me already, with a bass, long time ago).
So i might get one of those systems :
The speakers system I'm thinking of are "low end" and cheap (between 129 and 180 €) :
** Philips (i don't find the reference now, but it may be the cheaper philips system, with a *wooden* subwoofer)
** Altec lansing 251 (has volume for each single speaker)
** creatives. although i'll try to avoid them. I know the 5100 and its crap, even for playing dvd.
I understood it is important to have a real subwoofer : if i remember well 5.1 standard says that subwoofer response should be 20Hz to 80 hz (or 120?). This means that it produces real subbasses (which are vibrations "heard" in your abdomen, n ot on your hears : if you use an equalizer or filter on a "normal" monitor, you will achieve the bass impression, but not the true subbasses (what are the abilities of the cheap systems mentionned above ? i don't know).
You have more expensive systems, with better quality. But myself, i dont want to invest in a studio subwoofer and satelites, which i find justified if you seriously intend to do surround mixing.
Discreet inputs : speakers are fed by 3 stereo mini jacks : as a speaker is mono, this gives you 6 mono channels, each of them going to the 6 speakers of 5.1 systems. This is directly usable with the SFP surround mixers !
So where to connect them ?
I've looked the situation where I can avoid a dolby decoder, many cards include one already and it's easier to connect/disconnect for listening/mixing.
For listening, many cards do have discrete ouputs, I think of Sound Blaster Audigy or Extigy. There are others but here we are talking fun and low price for occasional experience. Avoid anything that does not have discrete outputs (Edirol/Roland UA3D) because it means there's no decoder included.
For mixing, I would use my A16, using adaptator to make the 3 stereo mini jacks as 6 independant mono jack. This could allow which also allows to switch surround/stereo (but again, what kind of mix can you do on those speakers who are like Hifi systems!!! really that would be just for fun).
A system like that would mainly allow a nice dvd playing experience, + the abilty to play with the surround modules for SFP.
But that's THE problem for mixing : you must have discrete ouputs on you SFP system, and I think that is possible only if you have A8/A16, or 3 cards like Pulsar or Luna.
Myself, i think i will try that, keeping in mind that my main objectif is to play DVDs in surround, but choosing a speaker system that would allow me to have fun if i whish one day with SFP, and test multipattern stereo recording (but that's another thing).
I think i'll get a philips system, because it looks like the sound can be better, second choice being altec lansing 251.
Someone is talking about USB surround soundcard ; that's EXTIGY (creative) and is not directly connected to you SFP surround outputs, but USB, reading a coded signal from your DVD. So i would use that on a laptop for games or DVD, but forget about using it with SFP : latency is 40 or 400 ms (it's USB 1. there are review on the net). On creative website, you will find ZERO information about recording with Extigy. In you SFP system, you'd better use a audgy, but it's not directly connectable to SFP.....
I read that USB 2 allows 400 mb/s transfer ? I note that Extigy is not available anymore on many shops. Creative has certainly something for christmas, but all their 5.1 system seem to go digital so i wonder if there will still be discrete outputs...
ok, that's it, i'm sure it will help.... Good luck.
(edited for additional info
) <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2002-11-05 15:31 ]</font>
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marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
Hi SpaceF, for discrete outputs, the cheapest solution for our system is the Luna IOBox. I actually use it for this purpose. I can output to 6 different mono channel, lot cheaper than buying 3 luna !!!
I've made some experiments with 5.1 mixing and AC3 encoding also on audio cds. You can listen to ac3 audio burned on CD thru your PC DvD reader!
So here's the workflow :
1- Mix everything using the Surround mixer of SFP. The output of this mixer goes into luna io box output 1-6. Connect those ouptu to 6 real speaker (my best bet for hi quality, specialy for mixing would be 6 nearfield monitor, but i guess it is pretty much expensive getting 6 of those...) , or a 'consumer hifi' system with 6 input.
2- Record 6 separate mono wav files (for 5.1 for example)
3- Use the 'free-but-not-free' software ac3 encoder dicussed in a planetZ thread somewhere to create the ac3 stream-ready file.
4- Burn it on CD using a DvD authoring software like 'DVDIt!' which can take the ac3 stream an burn it on a normal CD.
5- Create a project in SFP with digital wave source, connect to the spdif dest.
6- Play the ac3 audio cd thru PowerDvD for example selecting 'digital wave' in it's setup as the sound source.
7- plug to ANY ac3 capable sound system. (about any home cinema stuff) and enjoy your own AC3 mix in a real AC3 sound system!
Hehe, pretty cool...
I've made some experiments with 5.1 mixing and AC3 encoding also on audio cds. You can listen to ac3 audio burned on CD thru your PC DvD reader!
So here's the workflow :
1- Mix everything using the Surround mixer of SFP. The output of this mixer goes into luna io box output 1-6. Connect those ouptu to 6 real speaker (my best bet for hi quality, specialy for mixing would be 6 nearfield monitor, but i guess it is pretty much expensive getting 6 of those...) , or a 'consumer hifi' system with 6 input.
2- Record 6 separate mono wav files (for 5.1 for example)
3- Use the 'free-but-not-free' software ac3 encoder dicussed in a planetZ thread somewhere to create the ac3 stream-ready file.
4- Burn it on CD using a DvD authoring software like 'DVDIt!' which can take the ac3 stream an burn it on a normal CD.
5- Create a project in SFP with digital wave source, connect to the spdif dest.
6- Play the ac3 audio cd thru PowerDvD for example selecting 'digital wave' in it's setup as the sound source.
7- plug to ANY ac3 capable sound system. (about any home cinema stuff) and enjoy your own AC3 mix in a real AC3 sound system!
Hehe, pretty cool...