OT?: Sonar 2.0 vs Logic 5.2.0 vs Cubase SX 1.03 again

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 5:10 am

Now, having worked with all three apps for awhile I would like to share my thoughts about their comparison. And get a response and (please) any additions. Hope this would help one to choose if he/she haven't yet.

I found it the most convenient for myself to present the comparison with list of disadvantages of each app, compared to other two. Well...

Cakewalk SONAR v2.0:

1. No ASIO. I haven't tried new (3.1b) Pulsar's WDM drivers but when I had to record a multitrack (really multi - a lot of audio tracks) I got HUGE summar latency. Literally several seconds from the moment I press "Play" and hear the playback. Not very convenient.

2. No VST. Not really a problem, having all these dedicated VST-wrappers. In fact, the existence of these were the main reason for Cakewalk not to support VST in Sonar 2, as I read on their site. Although wrapped NI Kontakt had no multiple outs - which is critical for me. I haven't tried DXi support in Kontakt v1.1 yet though.

3. Bugfulness. I can name at least two major bugs that alone are enough to stop the use of Sonar. First - I had a crash every time I happen to swich windows during that delayed playback (i. e. after I press "Play" and before I hear a playback) with many audio tracks in project. On my P4 2GHz system. Second (again with many audio tracks) - after some time of work the working window of Sonar starts to get white. The only way to restore the view is minimizing the Sonar project window (minimizing the very Sonar doesn't help) and maximizing it again. Redraw problems? I'm not the only one who had this bug. Different video cards. All nVidia though.

4. Fixed fade curves. You can choose from presets such as linear, fast or slow, but nothing else.

5. No visual representation of separate notes' velocities in Piano Roll View. Only as controllers. Not very convenient when you, for example, want to see the velocity of each note in a chord.

6. Rumored poor built-in plugins quality (NOT CONFIRMED!).

7. Rumored poor audio quality (NOT CONFIRMED!). I haven't compared thie audio quality of Sonar 2 with quality of Logic or SX, but I was really pleased with the results I got with Sonar 2 this summer.

Emagic Logic Platinum v5.2.0:

1. No multiple outs for NI Kontakt. I know there is EXS24 with multi-outs, but I personally prefer Kontakt.

2. Less-than-advanced drum parts handling. I mean - no dedicated drum editor. As for Hyper Editor - I have to build the map each time I summon the editor - not really comfortable. And the very editing in it is not very convenient for me. Besides, there is a strange bug with mapped instruments in Logic. When editing in Matrix Editor, I can't see al the instruments names on the left. Just the piano keyboard with some instrument names every several keys. I observed this bug in v4.7.1, 4.8.1, 5.1.0 and 5.2.0.

3. Less-than-intuitive interface. I mean, the fact the pull-down menu appears when you click on empty space is, of course, very intriguing but not really inspiring for "just working". Besides, that flexible Environment idea is just GREAT but for me not very practical. Tastes differ though.

4. That strange "one waveform for stereo track in Arrange Window" approach. I'd prefer usual dual waveform.

5. Only one sequence at a time in Matrix editor. Cubase SX can have all selected clips in one Key Editor, while Sonar can have whole track or as many tracks as you want in one Piano Roll View.

6. No way to snap to grid the playback cursor while positioning it with a mouse. At least I haven't found a way to do so.

7. Not so easy to use time stretch function. Sonar has a decent one while SX contains an ideally intuitive functuin for that.

8. Folders. When I open a folder, I cannot see anything outside it.

9. No option to hide tracks, other than to folder them. Sonar rules here.

Steinberg Cubase SX v1.03:

1. Poorly implemented zoom handling. While "zoom to selection" or "zoom to locators" are really greate, there is no basic (and totally necessary) "previous zoom" function, so well done both in Sonar and Logic. To restore after that :zoom to selection" you will have to change both vertical and horizontal zoom, either by choosing certain preset or manually. Too many clicks for an elementary operation. Of course you can assign each preset to a key, but, first - you will have to assign two keys (horizontal and vertical presets), and second - you cannot assign a key for, say, "Zoom track height 2" preset. For some mysterious reason.

2."Window shrink" thing. I mean the following. I prefer working with one window at a time. And the window must be maximized, giving me more space to work with. Usually it is main, "project" window. Then, when I call, say, Mixer window, my project window "shrinks" from maximized mode behind the Mixer window. Mixer cannot be maximized. While some such windows (including VSTi panels) have a "Always On Top" option that fixes the problem for them, some (including the Mixer and Fade Editor) hasn't and cannot me maximized. It pisses me off.

3. Automation cannot be assigned to custom midi controllers. That is, you cannot control SFP synths with SX automation. Only common controllers such as Volume and Pan present. Everything's ok with VSTi's though.

4. Slower-than-instant fade curve editing. You have to load a Fade Editor for that.

5. That manual monitoring of midi-tracks. I find auto-monitoring of the current track in Logic and Sonar much more convenient.

6. That separate VSTi Automation track. I'd prefer to have all automation on the same track (or spawned tracks from the same one).

7. Markers Track. It would be better to see all markers on the time ruler - as in Logic or Sonar. Marker Track cannot be always seen if the project is large.

8. Low resolution time ruler. Logic and Sonar have at least one "mark" for each bar.

9. Unability to hide tracks. While folders are implemented greatly (much better than in Logic in my opinion), the option to hide tracks completely, like in Sonar, would help a lot.

10. Position. I can see surrent position either in bars or in min/sec (or somthing else). I'd like to see both in time and bar/beat format at a time - as in Logic and Sonar.

11. Rumored poor built-in plugins quality, even worse than in Sonar (NOT CONFIRMED!).

If I recall anything else, I'll report. Feedback would be highly appreciated. Corrections, additions, anything based on own experience.

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 6:14 am

2 small comments about Logic.

No ind. outs for Kontakt ?
I thought they had fixed that by now.
They have'nt ?

Difficult to use the time stretch ?
How ? What's the problem.

These are no snide remarks to stir up trouble, i was just wandering.

Great post by the way.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:08 am

Why haven't you updated Logic to 5.3?
As far as your Drum Editor in Logic, why don't you save the environment and import it to your next project?

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:10 am

>>Cakewalk SONAR v2.0:
>>>

Haven't tried it
>>
>>Emagic Logic Platinum v5.2.0:
>>1. No multiple outs for NI Kontakt. I know there is EXS24 with multi-outs,
>>but I personally prefer Kontakt.
>>>
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/fileadm ... date11.exe

>>4. That strange "one waveform for stereo track in Arrange Window" approach.
>>>
I'd prefer usual dual waveform. I suspect this was for cleanliness of the arrange. Using linked windows you can view parts really easily but it would be easier to see mono vs. stereo if it was indicated somehow...

>>5. Only one sequence at a time in Matrix editor. Cubase SX can
>>have all selected clips in one Key Editor, while Sonar can have whole
>>track or as many tracks as you want in one Piano Roll View.
>>>
Again linked windows help alleviate this a bit but I'd agree that Cakewalk & Sonar take the cake here...so to speak.

>>6. No way to snap to grid the playback cursor while positioning it with
>>a mouse. At least I haven't found a way to do so.
>>>
Not from clicking the actual cursor, but if you use the numeric readout on the transport you can just click & drag the bar, for example, and advance by entire bars at once. If you zero out the ppq/tic value at the end and scroll this way you can get around ok. Still I'd agree that I like SX better in this respect ESPECIALLY since they finally ditched the old cubase dbl click which i tend to screw up at least 30% of the time.

>>7. Not so easy to use time stretch function. Sonar has a decent one
>>while SX contains an ideally intuitive functuin for that.
>>>
I'll stick to wavelab or the good version of Timefactory.

>>8. Folders. When I open a folder, I cannot see anything outside it.
>>>
Screensets....really through the use of linked windows & screensets logic takes on a whole new fluidity.
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/feb01/arti ... cnotes.asp

>>Steinberg Cubase SX v1.03:
>>1. Poorly implemented zoom handling.<snip>
>>>
I learned to get around in SX from using Wavelab. At least for horizontal zoom the 'scrooming' by click+vertical drag on the time ruler will zoom in/out.

>>2."Window shrink" thing.<snip>
>>>
SX's screensets are 'passable' and might help this

>>6. That separate VSTi Automation track. I'd prefer to have all automation
>>on the same track (or spawned tracks from the same one).
>>>
THIS IS MY BIGGEST GRIPE WITH SX!!!!!!! We used to work with a japanese company that required us to use nuendo a bit (they were a distributor for our software as well) and in SX I cannot figure out how to ungroup my VSTi automation tracks. I want to move them next to the corresponding midi channels for ease of editing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>9. Unability to hide tracks. While folders are implemented greatly
>>(much better than in Logic in my opinion), the option to hide tracks
>>completely, like in Sonar, would help a lot.
>>>
SX's folders, while nice, are functionally behind logic's. In logic a folder is essentially like a part in many respects in that it can be aliased, repeated (try packing a few snippits into the first bar and then making a 4 bar folder. You loop the folder and it'll loop properly only playing the audio every 1st bar.) And I prefer using logic's folders with screensets to SX's approach. Stuff tends to shift around onscreen a lot in sx's arrange requiring me to always be scrolling when i change screensets.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2002-09-25 10:17 ]</font>

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 3:43 pm

To jupiter8:

No ind. outs for Kontakt ?
I thought they had fixed that by now.
They have'nt ?

Nope. I haven't found a fix.

Difficult to use the time stretch ?
How ? What's the problem.

Not really "difficult", but in SX you just drag the side of audio clip in arrange window and get a time-stretch.

2 paulmartin:

Why haven't you updated Logic to 5.3?

Is there really a 5.3 update for PC?

As far as your Drum Editor in Logic, why don't you save the environment and import it to your next project?

I cannot even save it within a single project. I used to CLOSE the editor after I have finished work there, not keeping in as another window. And if I close it once, I'll have to build it again as soon as I open another Hyper Editor. Or don't I understand something?

2 valis:

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/fileadm ... date11.exe

I have installed Kontakt 1.1. It didn't really change anything.

I suspect this was for cleanliness of the arrange. Using linked windows you can view parts really easily but it would be easier to see mono vs. stereo if it was indicated somehow...

...

>>5. Only one sequence at a time in Matrix editor. Cubase SX can
>>have all selected clips in one Key Editor, while Sonar can have whole
>>track or as many tracks as you want in one Piano Roll View.
>>>
Again linked windows help alleviate this a bit but I'd agree that Cakewalk & Sonar take the cake here...so to speak.

As I said, I prefer working with one window maximized at a time. I know about linked windows, but it is just a "workaround" for me, not a cure.

Not from clicking the actual cursor, but if you use the numeric readout on the transport you can just click & drag the bar, for example, and advance by entire bars at once. If you zero out the ppq/tic value at the end and scroll this way you can get around ok.

Well, I meant exactly clicking, not dragging.

I'll stick to wavelab or the good version of Timefactory.

I was talking about the convenience and simplicity of the operation. Just compare the use of Time Factory with simple edge-dragging in SX in this regard.

Screensets....really through the use of linked windows & screensets logic takes on a whole new fluidity.
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/feb01/arti ... cnotes.asp

I know about screensets. They're present in SX too. But in SX you get the folders fold/unfold straight in the main window. Just as folders in Windows Explorer. Tree-like structure.

I learned to get around in SX from using Wavelab. At least for horizontal zoom the 'scrooming' by click+vertical drag on the time ruler will zoom in/out.

In Sonar you just press the "u" key on your keyboard ONCE and get to your previous zoom. Both vertically and horizontally. In Logic you achieve this by clicking on any empty space with Zoom tool (I guess you know it). So dragging in SX doesn't match with this convenience at all.

>>2."Window shrink" thing.
>>>
SX's screensets are 'passable' and might help this

Yes, and I use them. But it is still a workaround. I'd prefer just to close Mixer window and get the arrange window in the very same condition as I left it before pressing F3...

>>6. That separate VSTi Automation track. I'd prefer to have all automation
>>on the same track (or spawned tracks from the same one).
>>>
THIS IS MY BIGGEST GRIPE WITH SX!!!!!!! We used to work with a japanese company that required us to use nuendo a bit (they were a distributor for our software as well) and in SX I cannot figure out how to ungroup my VSTi automation tracks. I want to move them next to the corresponding midi channels for ease of editing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thst's exactly the problem I was talking about.

SX's folders, while nice, are functionally behind logic's. In logic a folder is essentially like a part in many respects in that it can be aliased, repeated (try packing a few snippits into the first bar and then making a 4 bar folder. You loop the folder and it'll loop properly only playing the audio every 1st bar.) And I prefer using logic's folders with screensets to SX's approach. Stuff tends to shift around onscreen a lot in sx's arrange requiring me to always be scrolling when i change screensets.

I guess it is a question of the way you use the folders. I use them ONLY for project layout. Say, guitars in one folder, keys in anotyher. Or audio and midi in different folders. Or, more often, to hide older tracks that still must not be deleted. Although, as I said, Sonar shines here with its track filter...

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 4:07 pm

Ind. outs on VSTi:s was supposed to be implemented in Logic by now.
Is it just Kontakt that does'nt work?

I see what you mean about the timestretch. I saw this in Protools a couple of years ago and it just blew my mind.
This is the way timestretch should be implemented.I did'nt know you could do that in SX.

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 9:35 pm

About multi-output in Logic, it IS implemented, fruityloops as a VSTi can use multi-output in logic perfectly....So it must be Kontact then...

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:09 am

Yes, VSTi multi-outs ARE implemented in Logic 5.2, but it doesn't work for Kontakt and Battery. It does work for HALion and Waldorf Attack for example.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Noctulius on 2002-09-26 01:09 ]</font>

Post by **garyb** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:07 am

yes,there is a v5.3 pc for logic.

great thread!

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:20 am

I do hope we get to 5.4 with logic. It seems to me that 5.1x was the most stable ver of logic for pc (at least since 4.4 on for me) especially since it's stable on an ntOS.

Since the audio engine 'rewrite' though it's been a lot less stable, although multi outs in vst is nice...especially since this Sx 'crossgrade' likes to crater the pulsar something fierce.

So please, pause, and say a prayer for LAW v5.4 (by monday

)

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:26 am

Also, if you do have logic 5.2 or 5.3 and the kontakt 1.1 update, go into kontakt, choose options and set the stereo chans to 4 and mono chans to 4. Close Options, close & restart logic. SHould show up as a Multi now. As for Battery, I don't own it but apparently my mate has to use the 1.0 version (not the update) within logic. He says that the next update is imminent too apparently...

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 5:53 am

2 garyb:

yes,there is a v5.3 pc for logic.

Thanks, I'll tell a friend with Logic that he can update now. Personally I don't have logic and work with it in a friend's studio.

Also, if you do have logic 5.2 or 5.3 and the kontakt 1.1 update, go into kontakt, choose options and set the stereo chans to 4 and mono chans to 4. Close Options, close & restart logic. SHould show up as a Multi now.

And if I change back to my 16 stereo then? Will it be still there?
I need to have AT LEAST 6 stereo outs in Kontakt. Having several Kontakt instances won't help since I have all 6 for ONE Kontakt program.

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 7:41 am

And if I change back to my 16 stereo then? Will it be still there?
I need to have AT LEAST 6 stereo outs in Kontakt. Having several Kontakt instances won't help since I have all 6 for ONE Kontakt program.

My point was just that if Logic doesn't see it as a Multi after upgrading both Logic & Kontakt, try selecting it as a regular vsti. Should prompt you at that point to restart logic since it'll see the extra outs. If it DOESN'T, try going into options. Whether 6 stereo outs or 16 should work just as within other apps.

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:16 pm

Tried it all. Logic DOES see Kontakt as a multi-out VSTi ONLY if it is set up to have 4 stereo and 4 mono outs. Any other config throws Kontakt out of "Multi" folder. Doesn't suit me at all. Might be no problem for anyone else though.

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 8:44 am

In both Logic AND Cubase sx I'm able to get up to 16 individual outs at a time. This means 8 stereo and 0 mono, 6 stereo 4 mono etc. I don't think I'm able to achieve more in either app...

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:43 pm

Hmm... That-s strange. In SX I get at least 26 outputs (13 stereo). I just haven't tried more. But in Logic I cannot make Kontakt work in any config other than 4 stereo + 4 mono...

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:00 pm

For Logic & Kontakt, you have to add more AUX object for multi-output to work on more channels.... You can add as many as 64 AUX object, but i don't think Kontakt will use them all.... It is limited to 16 stereo out.

Noctulius · Post by **Noctulius** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:11 pm

2 marcus:

It is not Aux objects thing. Kontakt DOES work with Logic as a multi instrument if configured for 4 stereo and 4 mono outputs but DOES NOT work when configured for 4 stereo and NO mono outputs, for example. ANYTHING but 4s&4m doesn't work. A mystery.

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 12:26 pm

Yes, i know all of this, except that my Konkakt DOES work with more than 4stereo + 4 mono. And if you read Logic manual, you'll see that all those extra channels ARE Aux object, even if they are not showing inside Logic Environment. So just load a couple more AUX, assign them to the right asio output, then load Kontakt and you'll see.

In Kontakt, you can get 16 stereo out if you want.

valis · Post by **valis** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 1:05 pm

That explains it then Marcus, thanks. I only noticed that I was able to get up to 16 channels no matter how I configured it. I'd forgotten I'd turned down the number of objects used (I limit my preferences on num of bus/tracks/audioinst/etc to conserve memory).