Man on a Mission

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:35 pm

OK Guys.

I've got my next mission.

In an effort to get the most out of the Pulsar/Scope platform, I've decided to start trying to get the most out of the synths that come included with the cards.

There's quite a few to get acquainted with, but I might force myself to make small tunes with just one or two of the provided synths so that I can gain confidence with using them in my ongoing projects.

I think I'll start with the Inferno and the Blue Synth.

I'll post the tunes as I make them and you can feel free to tell me the patches I've made are crap or to give any advice you want to about what I've done.

I think in my future projects I'll also start forcing myself to use these synths as I become a bit more familiar with them to enhance my skills.

This is almost more an announcement than a general discussion.

Oh well. I just thought I'd share my aim with everyone. I'll post in the music section when I've got something to listen to, and I'll probably keep all the tunes to about 30 seconds or less so that people don't find it too much of a pain to download and have a listen.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:56 pm

I did the exact same thing with poison and bluesynth and guess what, they're my most used synths now. Poison kind of died on me, as I can make much cheaper, cheesier FM in mod2, but the bluesynth just grows on you.

Forget the creamware version tho.. get the Hummel version which is free. The hummel version is much more versatile and practical.

junklight · Post by **junklight** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 1:33 am

Another trick along these lines is to put a synth into your startup project (the one that runs when you haven't got the creamware environemnt open). This way you can fiddle with it when checking email or whatever - only works of course if you use your machine for other things than music. It does make a quick visit to the computer to check your email sometimes take a little longer

cheers

mark

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 3:54 am

Hey guys. I just experimented a bit with Bluesynth and I don't like it.

Well, that's not true exactly.

I just wanted to set myself a nice "Reset" type patch to save so I could always build my sounds from scratch and the three oscillators warble around each other like crazy. It sounds dreadful - like I've got a tremolo going or something.

I take it this is intentional and supposed to emulate real analogue oscillators? Drift or some such? I don't know - I'm not actually an afficionado of the mechanics of synthesis - but ewwwww!

I don't know if I can handle this synth. I might spend most of my time just trying to get rid of this warbling.

Am I losing it?

By the way - I dig the Inferno. Good stuff!

Feel free to disagree with me and tell me to wake up or something. If I learn to appreciate the synth, it might be marvellous for me.

I'll use the mod version of Bluesynth instead as I have that as well.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 4:08 am

not sure what you mean by "warble" but a lot of the presets do strange things with aftertouch so that might make it go out of control. I'd think if you like inferno, bluesynth should work because they're along similar lines anyway. So what's this warble thing?

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:11 am

I never liked the Blue synth. It always sounds powerless to me.
I did'nt like the mod either.

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:56 am

Hmmmm. What do I mean by warbling?

If you put all three oscillators on sine wave (or any other for that matter), line the oscillators up so that they on the same pitch (0 semitones and 0 cents), set all the LFO Depth knobs to zero and then hold a note it sounds like the oscillators are spiralling around each other.

The only way you can get a nice steady sound is by setting oscillator 2 and 3 to sync.

It sounds like a kind of tremolo effect.

I think it might be the effect of the oscillators moving out of phase with each other???? Almost like applying an LFO to amplitude??? Is that what this is?

Caleb

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 7:40 am

Well Caleb I admired your idea at the start of the post and just had to hold my tongue and think "Yech ! Blue Synth, good luck". When I first got my Pulsar the Blue was the best bundled synth - and I thought it was okay for drones but not much else. Within days I'd moved to the Saturn and various ModV2 patches and found relief.

I think I've booted up the Blue about twice in the past year - both times the Hummel version - but even then the improvement's not enough to excite. I know what the "warble complain is about", I found the same thing. It's just the routing of the various LFOs and the fine tuning. I recall deconstructing patches (like your "reset") and discovering that take way the detune and LFOs and you're left with a truly thin, miserable little trickle of noise. As for the Ezy, yech again. The various Miniscopes....ok but I never use 'em. The UKnow has some keen supporters, but I owned a Juno106 years ago and couldn't get rid of it fast enough. The Inferno is good but for me it lacks real character. All up I think the basic Pulsar synths are a bit ordinary - but perhaps it's just the fashion that has just moved on ?

But then comes the Lightwave and especially the Prisma: now they're sweet !

But best of all are some of the commercials - I just adore all Celmo's gear like the Bassman, Deep Blue & Supreme. Then there's the Synchrotron, Z0405 and the frees such as FM4 and DubSub - just two of perhaps a dozen I'm dying to name! And I haven't even touched on the huge Zarg range... I believe all this stuff easily rivals and often beats expensive hardware. I'm happy to put my Prisma sounds up against my friend's Virus - and funny thing is I can usually get a much better sound. but I think this comes from knowing the machine, whereas my friend usually just scrolls the presets and gets a bit lost when it comes to tweaking....

I'm raving about my favourite subject again.... hmmm, back to your project ... I think you've chosen a challenge to say the least. Why not use some of the good gear

. If you want digital why not the excellent YM1251? Two good machines that IMHO have some rewarding complexity that might be interesting for you are the Saturn and CombPlus.

btw I know you are a big VST user so how do you think Pulsar synths stack up against the likes of Dreamstation, Pentagon, Wasp, DX10, Junglist etc ?

And Junklight I like your default synth idea, might have to try that!

[ This Message was edited by: Spirit on 2002-04-26 08:46 ]

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:40 am

How do they stack up to the VSTi?

I haven't really used Dreamstation.

I think VAZ2001 is pretty killer but I just hate using the bloody thing. I haven't found a replacement for Tau Pro - probably my favourite synth. Pentagon I I really like, but it's pretty complicated to program. FMHeaven knocks the Pulsar FM synths on their collective arses. JX10 is an amazing freebie and JXSynth is also very good.

But how do they compare to Pulsar in general?

Well I find that difficult to establish. But get the easy ones over with - EZSynth is VERY uninspiring, The mod of Inferno looks pretty groovy and I think this could become a pretty good bass machine. I've started getting something useable out of the Blue, and that doesn't seem too bad. The Miniscopes bored me so much on my initial play with them that I doubt I'll get into them at all. The U-KNOW...I just don't know - it seems fairly uninspired, but this one I could change my mind about after playing a little. Lightwave and Prisma I just haven't gotten into at all yet, so I can't really comment. Vectron Player - who cares? I'm looking forward to the full Vectron though which I think will be a great synth.

Incidentally, some of the synths that actually impressed me were freeware ones. I really liked Amphetamine, Goofy, Saturn and some of Neutron's synths. I even really liked the TubeFlute

Have the Pulsar synths clearly dominated the VSTi? NUP, not as far as I'm concerned. In fact, at the moment I would lean towards the VSTi that I like. But I've used them for longer so it's hardly surprising.

God I am good at saying nothing for a very long time.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 8:43 am

Stock Pulsar synths are weak. But nearly all the freeware synths far surpass most VSTi's for my ears. The Pulsar should practically be bundled with synths like Saturn, TransPlanet, Star, Goofy etc... it's definitely the 3rd party synths that are really the best. And Prisma/Lightwave.

And I agree, go straight for the Hummel mods of the stock synths.

[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2002-04-26 09:45 ]

Post by **garyb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:11 am

i like the blue synth.........

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:22 am

Oh I should have mentioned - one of the reasons I haven't played too much with the Lightwave and Prisma is that I found these synths quite complicated to get something good out of, but I really wasn't expecting to at this stage. I thought it would be easier to knock the easier ones over first - especially as I'm not a good synth programmer.

Transplanet was one of the Neutron synths I was talking about earlier, but it sits in the Lightwave/Prisma zone because it is quite complex to get something workable out of it. But the W and the Micro both seem to be groovy little synths that I'd be happy to get some use out of.

I didn't like the DubSub. I tried using it in a song and eventually replaced it with my Tau Pro and got a much more satisfying result...to me anyway.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:29 am

.... I'm a dedicated parameter tweaker so unless there's multiple rows of knobs in unusual permutations I get bored. I think that's why most of the VSTis don't excite me - not enough programming depth, not enough modulation routings and assignments. Also to me they often seem a bit two-dimensional as if on some unconscious level an entire slab of audio is missing.

Is that ridiculous ?

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:42 am

If you find Lightwave/Prisma complicated, then start by going through the huge list of presets included with them, and make only tiny changes...

And I agree with you Spirit 100% on the synths.

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 11:20 am

I don't think you can weigh up a synth by itself; you need to listen to them in action, gathered with other sounds as well. Or even better playing some music with several instruments surrounding it. It's very subjective to say that a particular synth is not good, cos it's not good for some kind of music, but it's good for others... Of course, there are better and worst synths, but it can be tricky if you compare them alone.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:05 pm

On 2002-04-26 12:20, Nestor wrote:
I don't think you can weigh up a synth by itself; you need to listen to them in action, gathered with other sounds as well. Or even better playing some music with several instruments surrounding it. It's very subjective to say that a particular synth is not good, cos it's not good for some kind of music, but it's good for others... Of course, there are better and worst synths, but it can be tricky if you compare them alone.

Well said. This is also why many people are awestruck when they hear a Novation Supernova or a Korg Triton: most factory sounds are covered in tons of effects. But you're right its more important how they sound and fit in a mix...

borg · Post by **borg** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 4:11 pm

in my 'fav synths' folder i have: the neutron bunch (everything about these devices i find fresh and inspiring, especially the xy-axis pinball), saturn (what's there to say? an all time favorite), sds (ok, it's a drumsample machine, but still, a great device...), dubsub v2 (killersound, it's been a while and have to get deeper into this one soon), DSsynth05 ('analogift' i just totally like it, except this 'watery' design ???), orbitone 303 (it does what it's supposed to do) and dope (what can i say, it's alive, and listens to no reason. not your everyday synth, some would say it's useless and i wouldn't blame them

)
i hardly touch a CW synth, but blue synth has done some very nice things for me. as well as UKnow007 and inferno, although the latter has got nothing more to say to me now.
EZsynth does what it is designed for: help new users on their way. you should judge it on that spec... i'm glad to say it's been a very long time since i've used this one

the miniscopes are something different. i remember getting a great d'n'b sound from this one, and i've made a very cool daft and punky loop with it. but it's look scared me a bit. it's like this weird geeky girl with thick glasses in highschool you don't want to be seen with, but once you get to know her, she'll be one of your best friends ever. i'm sure i'm gonna use it several times in the future...
FM One, jeez, what a long time... i just discovered it wasn't in my pulsar folder anymore. i've never used it in a track, but now it's all coming back to me: playing with it for hours and getting some supercrazy sounds from it, but that was even before i knew how to record audio into cubase in a descent way. yes, maybe more a synth to take samples from...
EDSi8, great kicks, but apart from that? crap imho... and vectron player didn't appeal to me at all.
prisma and lightwave are a bit of a mistery to me... by the time i bought pro pack, i already had so many top free devices and mod patches.

i'm very subjective about this and don't care what kind of synthesis or whatever technique is being used. it's about sound...
some confessed wanting to have sex with their CW card. i would never betray my nord rack2

sorry, this seems a bit OT after reading the thread again. does this make me a waffle iron, too?

_________________
andy
 the lunatics are in the hall 

[ This Message was edited by: borg on 2002-04-26 17:16 ]

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 10:54 pm

Hi Spirit,

What you said about VSTi lacking parameters doesn't make much sense to me.

FMHeaven, Pentagon I, Triangle II, Delta, Reaktor, Dynamo, SynC Modular, QuadraSID, Ganymed, FM7 and Absynth just off the top of my head all have programming depth that is fathoms deep.

I don't own all of those and quite frankly I wouldn't want to, but they all have an amazing amount of flexibility to sound designing and you should never get bored with them if parameters are your thing.

For me, I prefer a combination of features and simplicity which is why I love Tau Pro so much. It may not be as versatile as some other instruments, but I'm not always looking for versatility when I'm programming.

Some times an inexhaustible suppy of features actually slows me down a bit. A fine example is that I have a Kawai K5000S synth and I've never programmed a sound on it.

I'm sure I will use it properly one day, just like I'm sure I'll gain some more familiarity with Pentagon I, Lightwave, Prisma and Transplanet. But I strongly believe that parameter complexity does not instantly make a synth better and neither does it actually add a "dimension" in audio quality either.

I think the quality of a synth is determined more by it's user. For me at the moment, a complicated synth will probably sound worse than a simpler synth because I'm not a good synth programmer. The more modulation routings and options I have, the more likely I'm going to make a big undulating wash of junk sound.

I think what Nestor said is really pertinent to me because it really is about the sounds finding a place in the music rather than finding a sound that IS the music.

I've always found myself a bit out of my depth with computer music and synthesis because I'm really a composer. I struggle to be a sound designer or engineer, mixer, masterer. I have none of these talents naturally so it's all hard work for me.

But I have fun along the way.

Gee it's great having a discussion about synths without talking about how many voices you can get out of them. I always found that to be the stupidest argument for ranking synths. It's quite rare that I would use more than 2 voices for a synth in my songs.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 12:38 am

Agree that the "lack of parameters" argument certainly does not apply to most of the devices you mention, although I'm not familar with them all. Does ANY device have as many options and possibilities as Reaktor ! It certainly blows away the ModV2 in terms of possible configurations.

I suppose what I was originally asking was whether you think the actual sonic quality of many VSTis was good. The just-released PC version of Absynth is being touted as as killer device, and Reaktor has a big reputation. Those "top level" devices aside, where do the "mainstream" Vsti devices sit ? And what about Reason ? It gets such a huge polyphony...does this mean the sonic quality is low?

This is part of the debate on synths which is usually split between the hardware and software. This thread makes a three-way distinction: hardware - DSP - software.

If this were an essay question it would be along the lines of: "Compare and contrast the sonic qualities of DSP, CPU and traditional hardware synthesisers."

Or is DSP-based synths really just harware (eg: Noah) ?

Gotta go, my third waffle is burning....

borg · Post by **borg** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 2:29 am

i certainly agree with nestor about 'sitting in the mix'. it's great to have something like the saturn (or nord rack

) to build a rich, healthy sound for pads. but then you have to fit in some other sounds, and i've found the neutron synths to be very tight if needed. they can do some fantastic 'lead' sounds...
as far as the comparison VST/DSP/HW is concerned, i can't really add something of value. ok, we had the pulsar synths. i got a korg MS10, and it certainly has got a VERY distinct sound and i love it a lot, but to say it's very useful? i have a nord rack and waldorf pulse. the pulse is a strange machine. sometimes it amazes me what crazy sounds this monosynth can produce. it's a bit chaotic to me, but that's partly due to the controlsection. i've never been a fan of assigning multiple functions to the same knob. this is where the nordrack really beats the lot. WYSIWYG. their both virtual analog, so not very different from softsynths imo. for me it comes down to the playability:
*knob tweaking: i haven't really found a good practical way to work with midi controllers yet, so here the nord wins hands down.
*performance (ok, maybe another discussion): nord rack has 16 voices (max. 4 sounds/outputs) for the same price as a pulsarII, which has much more afaik (somehow, i hardly do these kind of tests: 'how far can i go?' i immediately start playing the synth). the pulse is a monosynth (3 osc) for half the price of a pulsar. no further comment. this is about pulsar as a synth, not a studio of course.

oh, yes, VSTi...there's just one i use: the cs40, a fine example that you don't always need a screen full of knobs to get a strong sound. it's been really good to me. i must admit that i have never tried these famous softsynths. they cost a lot of money, and be serious... would you have as many synths in a hardware studio than you have on your computer?