will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

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spacef
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will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

EDIT: SOLUTION TO USE SPRING TANK WITH SCOPE'S LINE i/O IS IN THIS THREAD. HAVE FUN

Hi all,

lookingto get on of those cheap spring reverb from ali express

I've tested it at a friend who use it just to "pick" the spring and make old school reverb sounds (like kicking on a guit amp with spring reverb). he did not use it as an aux effect. it sounds like it should be in that use case.

I wondered if the impedance etc would be ok to use an an aux effect with send return connected to an A16 or a patch bay, once i get jack-to-rca cables. or will it blow away ?
Thanks

Specs:
input
Impédance: 600 Ohm
Inductance: 23.0 MH ± 10%
Résistance cc: 28.0 Ohms ± 10%
remote ca recommended: 3.1 MA for env. 3.5 À

Output
Impédance: 2250 Ohm
Inductance: 330.0 MH ± 10%
Résistance cc: 220.0 Ohms ± 10%
decay time average: 1.75 ~ 3.0 SEC
Last edited by spacef on Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by garyb »

tank like that requires a driver circuit.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

what is a "driver circuit"? a preamp or attenuator ? (the tank is supposed to work "as is" on a DJ mixtable with aux sends)
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by scary808 »

One of these might do the trick.

https://www.radialeng.com/product/tank-driver
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by astroman »

For me the link above doesn‘t work, so I can‘t comment on that item.
Spring tanks need a driving amp for the initial coil (basically a single channel headphone amp) and a preamp/buffer for the receiving coil. A sensitive line input may do, but this depends on model.

A cheap (not too bulky) alternative:
the Roland Cube 20 or 40 from early 80s has a very good spring tank. It‘s an extremely clean guitar amp and you can track via the headphone output (only 1 channel needed of course). They usually go for 50-100€.
Randy Rhoads used exactly that amp as a backstage warm-up for it‘s precision in tone.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by valis »

Scary808's link was to a lunchbox (or eurorack? didn't look long) format balanced i/o spring reverb.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

thanks guys. I know better now.

Well I don't want to get a guitar amp (I play approximately 1 or two riffs per year now, lol), but the 2nd hand way is a good idea. Thanks for the references (Roland Cubes). The lunchbox looks like expensive studio stuff (API 500 format? but it doesn't look like it is being made anymore, there are other racks and desktop boxes at the resellers' links (re-ampers).

May be I'll get a tank anyway and make a sample bank of the springs being plucked and kicked and tortured (the output works fine at line levels, no need for anything).... far from being a priority though. Pure gadget :-)

If it was only for guitar, I'm the kind of guy who would go the guitar pedal way , ampless, (surfy bear sounds awesome, but there are cheaper stuff that are ok).

for Aux effects / DAW (samples, recordings) I guess I will continue to count on software (the Aegis Spirit Reverb gave me convincing, results on reggae guitar samples (dub style FX), and it is cheap in price and resources too so one can load many and not even bother with aux sends, not like arturia's etc which sounds really dirty and takes ridiculous amount of CPU and generates weird artifacts making it unuseable, or other manufacturers who do "studio springs" that do not have the sound I'm looking for)...
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by astroman »

Hi Mehdi... I just „inserted“ the Cube 40 into the my current io-setup by a Digidesign 882/20 as send/return.
Send into the anp’s guitar input, a stereo splitter into the headphone out (to silence the speaker), 1 line back into the 882/20, reverb dial full on.
The amp is rather crisp by nature, but hiss is controllable by gain and eq .

Sounds as expected with FM/PD synths of steep attack and short decays, imho not so great with longer decays or „warm“ basses/brass.
Spring-twitch is present, but the tank has a fairly short decay... nice on guitar but may not fit more ambience oriented effects. If you‘re interested in an audio example, tell me what kind of sound...
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

H all !

Thanks Astroman ! and sorry for the delay (I thought I replied to your suggestion, almost 1 year ago) .

there is another thread where we talked about impedance, and as their is a part about spring tanks, I copy it here.

Basically a spring tank of type "BB" will work fine with a headphone amp output and HiZ inputs, without the need for much more gear. (scroll down the TAD link below to see the meaning of lettering A, B, C, D etc).


mail exchange with "TAD" (spring tanks manufacturer) and the info can be useful. (I suppose that question/reply "b" might depend on the quality of the volume potentiometer, not to reach saturation too quickly).
My questions are the following:
a) - I would use a headphone amp (between 40 and 80 ohms output impedance depending on the amp) : is this enough to drive the B type (150 ohms input)
b) - or may be an "in-ear" amp of approx 10 ohms : does this work with the 8 ohms input "A" type ?
c) Models that have 2275 Ohm output impedance: will it match the HiZ input of a soundcard ?


Reply:
a) Yes
b) yes

c) Output impedance.
Basically, the input impedance of the device should have 10x the output impedance of the spring. So, the 2275 ohms should "see" 22k at least. Line inputs are normally lower than that!
It is recommended to use a High-Z inputs of Your card.
Hope it helps...
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

Ok, at last, 1 year later, here is my rig for a Spring reverb on line outputs.

One can use headphone output of Xite to send directly to a spring reverb,
Here are two YT tutorials about that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJdSREWxxY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIryyi3bp-c&t=1s


but I need the headphones out, to use headphones, so I needed to use Line I/Os to save the headphones out.
Problem: headphone amplifiers are not made to be plugged on Line outs (they just extend the headphones output). So it is useless if one needs to use Line i/os (except more expensive models probably).

- I got a second hand mixtable (alto ZMX862) with most outputs @ 120 ohms, including headphone output. So it is like a headphone amplifier with extra functions. I can feed it with line level signals (you can't do that with headphone amplifiers).
- The Spring is BB type ( 150/190 Ohms input /// 2575 ohm output)
- The Spring goes to a HiZ input of Xite with RCA to TS cable.

cost: 40 € second hand mixtable + 30 € spring (NEW) + 18.50 DHL + 9.99 2*RCA to TS" cables = 98,49 €
You could add another tank and use PAN to route signals to one or the other or both, in dual mono or stereo.
that would be around 150 € for a dual spring setup.

One could add a DI box to convert the HiZ from the Spring into a Line signal (a dual box for stereo).
Voilà, problem solved, sounds better than IRs ;-) Will allow to turn many Scope Delays into proper "EchoVerb" units.

Made me think that of SOnic Core ever does another card, it would be incredible to have spring i/os to use them directly ;-). (lol, that would be unique)
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by Rafe »

Thanks. You've sold me on this one. Loadsa fun sound for such a tiny outlay. Much appreciated
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

Thanks ! I recorded a short mp3 'link below) of the pictured setup on a piano from the DAW. It's a short "8BB" model from Tube Amp Doctors. I will probably get a 9BB (long+3spings) next month (because I saw it demoed on a video of the Benidub sping amp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIYR0MLqqGs) )


all mp3 use a single spring (all sound sent at the same time)

on piano
https://spacef-devices.com/File-downloa ... n-TAD8.mp3

on rim shots and steel guitare
https://spacef-devices.com/File-downloa ... mSteel.mp3

and with a delay, in scope, after the reverb (as an aux send)
https://spacef-devices.com/File-downloa ... DelRay.mp3
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by w_ellis »

I've always used my behringer ha400 on line output from my mixer... would that also be an option?
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

yes :-)
i did not know some amp headphones could work on line out...
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

Hello,

I wanted to add that I got a DI Box but it did not work (output is 600 ohms mic level, but it was weak as hell, probably faulty or made for something else). So I returned it.

So far only HiZ inputs worked straight away, as well as my old Mooer Radar pedal that is line compatible (but the price is not really worth it if it is bought just for this - aventhough it IS cool to add cab sims to the spring tank, it changes a lot the character of the spring).

I found Harley Benton MiniStomp Magnum D.I. 19.90 euros , it has good reviews in terms of sound. Then, there are a lot of amp sims with DI outputs, but they are more expensive (the TC electronic amp sims).

In the video tutorials, the guy uses an Accutronic which outputs at 600 Ohms, plugged into a MIC input.

So the choice of tank depends a lot on the available in/outs and the extra gear that you may already have (or in which you want to invest).

let me know if you know a DI that converts HiZ into true Line input (not MIC) and which is not expensive.
I think there are preamps that can do this, but I think I am done with my setup (all on HiZ) so I will not investigate much further right now.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

HiZ to Line = guitare pedals with Line out are probably the best bet.

-- Mooer Radar works fine (had one already - but buying it just for this might be overkill, eventhough it is nice to have a choice of cab sims to enjoy a variety of sounds with the same tank).
--- Ordered a Harley Benton MiniStomp Magnum D.I (20€) to test it (it has good reviews). (Harley benton is a brand put on no name gear, so you may find the same under various brands in different parts of the world. In France we have "Rowin" on Amazon (at 30€) which is exactly the same.


... to be continued.
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by valis »

Did you get a DI Box that could be used in reverse as mentioned?
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

No, not yet, because in the low budget stuff I did not find anything that felt trusty. Either because of bad reviews about sound or passive gear that heats up and stops working until it cools down. Also, looking at the specifications and use cases shows that there are plenty of applications for DI boxes (for example, many people use them as a bridge between HiFi equipment and speakers, not at all in a home studio HiZ to line scenario).

In a few words, it was very confusing, and what I thought would work did not work at all (the Klark Technic DI22P that remained silent or with a sound so weak that it can't be used - and I tried every cable I had (XLR, TRS, TS) and inputs that I have (mic, line, A16 ultra, patch bay, etc). That box just did not work. I sent it back and I am waiting for the refund now.
May be it did not work because it was a passive box. I can't say for sure.

if the Harley Benton mini DI Box does not work or has poor sound, I wil lsend it back too, and stay on the HiZ inputs of Xite.

For the spring tanks (spare parts for guitar amplifiers), it is not a reamp scenario (only headphone outputs will work fine on 150/200 ohms inputs).

But if you have recommendations...
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

I just received and tested the Harley Bento DI Box, and it works fine with +20dB switch (on the pedal) and XLR to TRS to A16 ultra. Otherwise sound is weak (I guess one could use a 24dB gain if TS input is the only input available).

Well, I suppose it is normal, it is not a mic/hiz preamp :-)

I am glad to have been able to free one mic/hiZ input to keep it for microphone (I don't like to plug/unplug cables on Xite... I would not like to break them).

Pfeew, I am glad to have finished this setup.

So to summarize:
- many spring tanks will work fine with sound cards and no extra gear (or very little) - if you have enough I/Os and the right impedances.

-> Tank input 150/200 ohm = can be driven by headphone amps/outputs (from soundcards, mixtables etc)
-> Tank output 500/600 ohms = to be plugged into mic inputs
-> Tank output 2500/2600 ohm = goes to hiZ inputs or through a 20/30 € DI box (preferably an active guitar pedal with DI output on XLR/TRS, as the passive DI box I tried did not work at all and the TS might not give enough volume to be used straight away).



Of course, deluxe people will have a look at preamps with all kind of inputs and gain.
I also suppose that a mixtable with HiZ inputs will work too to plug the springs and get them back as line signals (but they are expensive).

I recalculated and my setup costed less than 150 € for 2 springs (behringer can't do it apparently, their spring aux effect is 199 € / mono ;-) ) .

Anyway, I hope it helps !

have fun !
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Re: will this spring reverb work as an aux (impedance/RCA)

Post by spacef »

Here are some pics of my final setup. I also made devices for them fo Scope/Xite, that you can find
here viewtopic.php?p=356852#p356852
or there https://spacef-devices.com/free-downloads/

They are Send/Returns tailored for mono effects. Fully tested with the pictured setup ;-)

Sounds really great like that...


Springs.jpg
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HiZ-to-TRS-Line.jpg
HiZ-to-TRS-Line.jpg (70.99 KiB) Viewed 16251 times
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