SDK / open scope

[soren_jepsen]

I'm trying to figure out if I should jump the offer with the xite+sdk6.

I'm a musician and music teacher. I've owned a luna card for a long time, and recently upgraded with a used pulsar card. I've had problems with the cards inability to handle large amounts of midi information, but "solved" that with a usb midi cable and software filter outside scope. Not optimal, but it works.....sort of.

Is the xite any better at handling large amounts of midi signals?

The offer with the xite is nice, but it's still a lot of money. I'm wondering if sdk6 is a bonus for me, or if the process of learning to program in it takes too much time away from the music. In that regard, I've started to mess around in modular2. Is programming in the sdk anything like that?

Also, what is the difference between sdk6 and open scope?

I can definately see the possibilities with the processing power of the xite, and flexibility of scope. I'm trying to justify the expence


Regards
Soren

[tgstgs]

sorry but scope as well as xite can handle much more mididata than any other system_

good vibes

[soren_jepsen]

Hmmm, in that case I'm doing something wrong.

I use a Roland A90 master keyboard. It continuesly sends "active sensing" signals. My luna card came with the Powersampler 2 package, but in the end I gave up playing the sampler with my keyboard, as it kept crashing scope.

Same thing happened when I bought a usb midi cable (ESI), and sent the midi straight to scope. Only when I filter the midi signal before reaching scope, do things behave.

Am I doing something wrong?


Oh, and any input on my other questions?


Regards
Soren

[babaorum]

I have a luna II + a pulsar II and experienced the same thing that you soren.
So now I have the midi interface from my Akai MPD24 (usb), and my master keyboard plug into the midi of the akai.
I use only sequencer midi output in scope not the luna or pulsar midi, and I use midi filter too.
and it works well.

[garyb]

there are different kinds of data. active sensing is garbage and it definitely makes a mess and overflows midi buffers, Scope is weak to that kind data. the actual midi handling of useful information is quite robust.

it's not that big of a deal to turn active sensing off or to use a midi filter.

[dante]

Yes Scope has filter devices you can use to filter out unwanted data within a Scope project. And with MIDIOX you can route USB midi direct to Scope. Also, with the upcoming OpenScope there is much focus on control protocols, for example, implementation of protocols not limited to 128 controller values.

The XITE deal is worth it on todays platform let alone what OpenScope will offer tomorrow. You can only win.

[Bud Weiser]

there are different kinds of data. active sensing is garbage and it definitely makes a mess and overflows midi buffers, Scope is weak to that kind data. the actual midi handling of useful information is quite robust.

it's not that big of a deal to turn active sensing off or to use a midi filter.

I assume, the old Roland A90 transmits much more MIDI crap than Active Sensing only.
P.ex.,- my old Yamaha keys (DX7mkIIFD and KX76) transmit Active Sensing throughout and never caused any MIDI buffer overflow w/ my 15DSP Classic or XITE-1.
My KX-5 transmits Active Sensing too,- but in 50ms intervalls instead of 300ms (the standard),- which caused hanging notes and other issues w/ old Roland MPG80 (MKS80 programmer) connected to MKS80 as also w/ the MKS70 already.

I remember, the old D50 keyboard (not D550 rack) transmitted not only Active Sensing but also Note Off status bytes instead Note Off = velocity 0 ...
Same ruled for the old RD1000 DPs and others.
These messed up Miditemp MIDI matrix processor gear causing MIDI volume jumps and such.

No need to filter out Active Sensing from MIDI stream except for thinning out data in sequencer MIDI tracks.
If you have other Yamaha MIDI gear in the chain, you need it because otherwise the gear shuts down voices.

Bud

[garyb]

active sensing is so not needed....

[dawman]

I attest to that.
The first time I ever saw it was after I just used the Oberheim DX, 360 Systems MIDI Bass, TX816 and the QX-1. Beautiful easy editing, for those times, but the drummer just had to get the SP12 and there were still no filters available yet in hardware I could find. THe JL Cooper and DMC-MX8 also was limited in the filtering.
It gagged my sequences, and I went in and deleted every single string of worthless information.
Each song took at least an hour as one measure seemed like a lifetime.

I use MIDI Filters in hardware along with a new MOTU 128 and the MIDI Panic button is doubled up using Wolfs, so I got things redundant. Sofrtware and hardware.
MIDI is my friend, always has been too. I will never stray from it Cables and hardwar I/O's for weak USB crap or even LightPeak or Thunderbolt.

I fear change.

Garth from Waynes World 1993 MGM/United Artists

[dante]

Its an interesting debate. In days of having multiple modules in series (or parallel with a rack MIDI router etc), and the master controller having its MIDI cable accidentally knocked out, the modules shut down any hanging notes, sysex dump, other handshaking exchanges etc (if they adhere to active sensing part of MIDi spec).

This saves the performer/engineer etc from being forced to physically reset every one of those modules one at a time.

But more often than not, these days, its a choker that needs filtering out.

[tgstgs]

each of the red wires in your project window carries 3150 midievent/sec at 44k1Hz continous without any buffering_

there are buffers in additions to handle spikes;

need more __ split the stream into 2, 3, 4 . . . . .

but commerzial midifiles have max of 100 - 200 events/sec;

so what are you sending in there????

[soren_jepsen]

.....just me hammering away on the before mentioned A90

Unfortunately, active sensing cannot be turned off in the A90. I tried filtering the midi signal inside scope, but it didn't help :-/

I gave a lot of thought to upgrading scope 5.1, but I wasn't shure it would help. In the end I got so annoyed, that I bought a MOTU Ultralite mk3.

.....this also had problems with the midi stream. From time to time, it would "gather up" the midi signal, and sprut it out a second later.

I finally bought the usb midi cable. This didn't have any problems. However, if I route the midi signal unfiltered to scope (for playing scope synths or the sampler), the old problem is back

What brought the card(s) back into my computer, was the info on open scope on the web. So now I'm wondering if I should sell the cards and jump the offer


Regards
Soren

[Liquid EDGE]

Buy it and design something superb for all the xite'rs please

[dante]

.....just me hammering away on the before mentioned A90
Unfortunately, active sensing cannot be turned off in the A90. I tried filtering the midi signal inside scope, but it didn't help :-/
Soren

I had an old DX7 where the MIDI output still worked but with spurious errors, due to a coffee spillage I believe. But if you've eliminated any issue in the A90 itself, you could try a small MIDI box, eg something from

http://www.midisolutions.com/products.htm

According to thier FAQ : "We have found that the problems introduced by active sensing outweigh its benefits, therefore all MIDI Solutions products (except Thru boxes and the Power Adapter) filter active sensing messages"

[garyb]

.....just me hammering away on the before mentioned A90

Unfortunately, active sensing cannot be turned off in the A90. I tried filtering the midi signal inside scope, but it didn't help :-/

I gave a lot of thought to upgrading scope 5.1, but I wasn't shure it would help. In the end I got so annoyed, that I bought a MOTU Ultralite mk3.

.....this also had problems with the midi stream. From time to time, it would "gather up" the midi signal, and sprut it out a second later.

I finally bought the usb midi cable. This didn't have any problems. However, if I route the midi signal unfiltered to scope (for playing scope synths or the sampler), the old problem is back

What brought the card(s) back into my computer, was the info on open scope on the web. So now I'm wondering if I should sell the cards and jump the offer


Regards
Soren

that's what i would call strange and aberrant behavior. i have used an A90 with Scope before with no problems, and it is CERTAINLY bizzare for midi info to be "gathered up" and then "sprut it out" all at once.

there's something else wrong in your setup, i have no idea what because i've never seen such an issue, but it's not the Scope software nor the hardware that does that, even though that would seem to be the case if another interface worked. if that's what you are concerned about, then i wouldn't be. yes, active sensing should be filtered. no, there is no problem with the midi stream.

[dawman]

I love it when tgstgs speaks...............It's like an E.F.Hutton commercial where the room goes totally quiet.....

[garyb]

he does know what he is speaking about...

[jksuperstar]

Have you ever used a midi monitor on the data from the A90 to see what it really is?

I'd check if the pitch stick or mod wheels are sending a constant stream of data due to some dirt or minor malfunction. I'd be curious if the addition of active sense info is just enough to saturate the midi bus.

Maybe a simple cleaning is in order?

As for SDK6 and open scope...they are yet to be released, so it's hard to say anything other than what is on the sonic-core website.

The previous SDK was more like the project window than modular, but with a whole slew of programming attributes in addition...which could be used or partially ignored. Certain things like adding XTC mode, making a module or device, etc, all deviate the process slightly. The biggest things you need to deal with first are the pins of your device, and how they are connected through any hierarchical algorithm you've made. Then comes the surface, or the interface/skin you look at when editing the device during normal use. That's about it, and after that you can get as deep as you want, with scripts, specialized surface elements, splitting various forms of processing on the DSPs vs. the host, etc. But initially, there's not a ton to learn, other than what atoms are available to play with (ie - learning the language), and how to break an idea down into the available atoms.

[Bud Weiser]

Have you ever used a midi monitor on the data from the A90 to see what it really is?

That´s what I wonder too.

I'd check if the pitch stick or mod wheels are sending a constant stream of data due to some dirt or minor malfunction. I'd be curious if the addition of active sense info is just enough to saturate the midi bus.

Active Sensing will never saturate a/the MIDI bus/buffer because it´s a simple clock event appearing every 300ms after the status byte is been transmitted.
That´s nothing compared to a streaming MIDI clock signal of 24ppqn p.ex. or any MIDI continuous controller info.

With MIDI Active Sensing, it´s all about a receiving device translates this info into something useful or not,- where "not" means ignoring this MIDI info.
That´s how it should be according to MIDI spec.

AND,- if he already used a (hardware) MIDI filter in the MIDI chain and physically placed prior the physical MIDI In port of a Creamware/Sonic Core card or the one of XITE, filtering out Active Sensing data type and the issue still remains,- Active Sensing isn´t causing his issue,- simple as that.

Bud

[dante]

Yep thats what the DX7 did after the coffee stain. Yes MIDI was being output, and received in sequencer, but the data itself was garbage. Which suprised me because I thought it never would have made it into the sequencer at all if the MIDI xmission was throwing away rubbish at the hardware level. I know sysex is checksummed, but maybe bad performance data can get through if the key bytes are still coming in 'legal' combinations.

A screenshot of the Scope MIDI monitor would be usefull here.