NO multiclient ASIO yet - are WAVE dirvers the solution???

[ARCADIOS]

is there a way to get lower latencys in wave drivers?
i have been using scopes wave drivers within scopes environment and it was nice working this way.

i have the sequencer only in asio and all other applications like reason open in wave.
rewire is ok but causes many problems to me sometimes. it seems the whole system is going to collaplse from moment to moment.
on the other hand... WAVE gives the stability and also the ability to turn on off whatever you like without dependencies to one another.

if there was a way to decrease its latancy....!! is there??
so far i get about 96ms... ok for samples but not for keyboard playing... also i still get some glitches...

[ARCADIOS]

asio4all made the job i believe.

well, this freeware tool is realy helpful. gives an acceptable latency and can be the audio engine for many (pseudo asio.. i guess) programs.
it has the option to choose scopes wave input, driving the signal right into scopes environment.

nice.

any other opinions are welcome

[Bud Weiser]

asio4all made the job i believe.

well, this freeware tool is realy helpful. gives an acceptable latency and can be the audio engine for many (pseudo asio.. i guess) programs.
it has the option to choose scopes wave input, driving the signal right into scopes environment.

nice.

any other opinions are welcome

Hi Arcadios !
I tried several solutions since my last post in the "problem solving" area.
Wave drivers have too high latency for me and the ASIO Multiclient beta from Steinberg worked but came up w/ artefacts like pops and clicks.

Last try was Reaper 3.7 today, which offers to install the ReaRoute ASIO client driver to stream audio from other apps into Reaper using Scope ASIO as the main driver.
Well, it works w/ Reason choosing the ReaRoute ASIO client for Reason audio output channels but comes up w/ 45-60ms latency,- not much better than WAVE drivers and it seems to work in 48Khz only , not 44.1KHz S/R,- or I did something wrong.
In any case, I couldn´t force Reason switching to 44.1K even Scope was set to this S/R in my startup project.

Now, I´m using Scope 1632 mixer w/ 8 stereo channels to run Minimax, Prodyssey, Vectron Player, Lightwave and You Know 7 in my startup project which loads pretty fine and uses the Scope MIDI Source A.
I created a start-project in Reaper 3.7 using several tracks for VSTis and ONE track for Reason´s stereo out rewired to Reaper 3.7, Reaper using ASIO-2 Source 16Bit/ 2 channels connected to 1632.
There´s a 2nd (8x8) MIDI interface connected to the machine, offering 4 separate MIDI ins for the VST stuff and 4 ports for Reason in addition to Scope MIDI A Source.
This is a great solution to play Scope -, VST - and Reason - Instruments in realtime w/ very low latency and it feels like playing my hardware instruments.
In fact, my hardware keyboards are the MIDI controllers, playing their own soundengines, triggering hardware MIDI modules, the Scope devices running on my 15 DSP Classic, the VST instruments and Reason devices and I use a Miditemp PMM88E as a frontend MIDI matrix switcher, program changer and processor for keyboard splits, layers.

Bud

[dawman]

I just read the manual on the PMM 88E.
Can't believe I never saw one of those.
What an excellent MIDI device....
I am going to get one off of ebay..
Thanks..

[Bud Weiser]

I just read the manual on the PMM 88E.
Can't believe I never saw one of those.
What an excellent MIDI device....
I am going to get one off of ebay..
Thanks..

Hi !
Well, these are rare and partially expensive even used.
I´m using this MIDI machine since decades, 1st the previous version PMM88 which does almost the same but w/ less memory banks and a slightly reduced feature set,- but it was always enough for any pro touring w/ tons of hardware.

I´m sure, today, it might be possible to program all this functionality in software too, but what a waste of time !
The PMM88 (E) never crashes, all my hardware keys and modules are connected to it (I also use Sycologic M16 midi matrix switchers in my studio in addition) and all my MIDI channels to and from computers run thru this setup, so it´s all interconnectable incl. re-channelizing, multi channelizing and such.
I´m doing in seconds what costs hrs in software.
It´s definitely worth any money you have to pay for a unit in good working condition.
Before you buy, take care if the rotary-dial encoder SWITCH (!!!) is working, pushing the switch of the encoder is the same as [enter] finally,- so it´s the most used and mechanically stressed switch and it´s out of production by ALPS,- the most hard to find replacement part.
MIDItemp has great customer support,- I got new software eproms for free as an exchange when I buyed the machine used.

B.t.w,- you´ve sent a PM in the musicplayer form/keyboard corner some time ago and I didn´t recognize that for a long time ´cause I was too stupid/lazy to find out how that works in that forum.
I answered a few days ago.

Let´s keep in contact, we´re figureing out the same stuff for live gigging and my 4HU slow P4 machine w/ Scope 15DSP classic is only the test machine to get all the basic functionality right before switching to a Xite-1 next year.

I´ve read in the Reaper forum you want to switch from rackmount solution to a laptop and I investigated at ADK Pro Audio too,- but that´s very expensive solutions.

I wonder, if a ACER TravelMate 5720 w/ TI Firewire and PCIExpress34 slot would do the trick for cheap, just a Core2Duo 2.2GHz ...
Of you look on the RME website for Fireface UC (USB2 inerface) you´ll find some fully compatible laptops, watching the ACER in 1st place w/ Vista (not so good for audio) and the same below w/ WinXP Pro 32Bit,- excellent results w/ latency down to usable 64 samples (w/ USB2 !!!).

So,- w/ Reaper and Scope/Xite-1, it might be a ideal partner for under EUR 600.- !

best

Bud ( alias A.C.)

[dawman]

I tracked down an old friend I often reffered studio work and gigs to there.
When I first came back to Vegas form a 6 six year stint I went looking for old friends who could fill me in on what rooms were booked through which agent, etc.
In Vegas they always want to appear to have entertainment, so they write out a schedule once and post it, then as the weeks roll by you'll see the advertised groups aren't together, and different people are performing. Difficult to find folks...The live players forum was perfect.
Glad to see you're a fellow hardware admirer, so many guys these days have the all in one box solutions and no back up. Big difference on a stage where things change quickly and in realtime.

Peace.....

[Bud Weiser]

Glad to see you're a fellow hardware admirer, so many guys these days have the all in one box solutions and no back up. Big difference on a stage where things change quickly and in realtime.

Peace.....

Yep !
MIDI programming in software for splits, layers, key windows, transpositions, velocity layers and splits, event merging, Prg-changes, sending user programmable data strings and stable midi clocks per patch is the weakest point,- not only time consuming but also partially impossible.
Same rules for MIDI implementation you find in todays MIDI controller keyboards featured as master MIDI controllers.
I see a/ the one and only "startup" project in Scope replacing most of my vintage hardware modules and keys soundwise and changing the preset(s) / banks only and according to the music to perform.
Reason as a loop machine w/ REX files, freely available Refills plus THOR halfmodular synth is low CPU footprint.
Kontakt 4, OPX Pro and a assortment of few VSTis completes the rig.
I plan buying a Yammy Motif XF w/ flash RAM as a backup rompler and 1 out of 3 MIDI controller keyboards.
PMM88E sends user programmable tempo MIDI clocks via user definable MIDI out ports and storable per user patch for each song,- so REX loops and THOR step sequencer or arpeggiator tempos will be always right by a flip of a finger.
Up to now, I didn´t use any tempo related features in Scope, but I think it will be the same.

I have to upgrade to Scope version 4.5 /5.0 1st to get all the devices.

Bud

[bcslaam]

[quote]
MIDI programming in software for splits, layers, key windows, transpositions, velocity layers and splits, event merging, Prg-changes, sending user programmable data strings and stable midi clocks per patch is the weakest point,- not only time consuming but also partially impossible.
[end quote]


You've tried Cantible or Forte then?

I am happy with forte for this.

[dawman]

I am not sure what the Multiclient issues are.
I use the ASIO Source and Destination Modules, and have multiple
Sequencer MIDI Source & Destination Modules that allows multiple
VST hosts and apps...?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something.

I have decided to use Bidule as the host since its 64bit version is stable.
Forte worked well in 32bit, I would like to see Forte in 64bit just to see
how much it will hold.

Bidule allows me to assign MP cores and it looks like I can use it as a
Sequencer playback device. I haven't figured out how to get a click out
for IEM's other than recording a sidestick snare w/ a splash of verb and
seperate tracks.
But Bidule has excessive MIDI tricks that replicate my hardware, but I still
need the DMC MX-8 to handle the actual MIDI I/O's of my Analog synths,
but they can also be processed internally like multiplying the Analog synths
by double tracking for real FAT bass grooves.

Its nice having so many 12-16 voice Modular patches, Tape Delay Effects
and recently Alfonsos' Smokin' MoJo Guitar Patch.
I have a great new Heavy Metal Guitar Crunch Instrument recorded dey so
I can add my own Overdive and Gin structure using Mojo, and his patch is
a true work of art as I can bounce to presets in realtime for Acoustic Guitar
stuff, and even use the Overdriven channel w/ an expression pedal and it is
quite authentic.....

[Bud Weiser]

You've tried Cantible or Forte then?

I am happy with forte for this.

Yep. Cantabile would be fine for me as a VST(i) host if it would have Rewire compatibility, but it hasn´t and I don´t see any plans it will have soon.

Also Forte doesn´t offer Rewire,- but I want to use Reason as a instruments rack in addition to VST and SCope DSP stuff.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

I am not sure what the Multiclient issues are.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding something.

Maybe.
If I´m using p.ex. ASIO 2 16Bit Source and expand the input channels from 2 to 6,- I´m unable to assign Cantabile stereo- outputs to input channels 1+2 and Reason stereo-outputs to input channels 3+4 of the driver and it is also not possible to assign Kontakt stereo out to input channels 5+6.
Same happens w/ ASIO 2 flt. 64 Source any any other variant.

I tried, just as a test/experiment, the driver update for Cubase 4.1 and the Steinberg Multiclient beta, which worked, but gave clicks and pops.

If you try Reaper´s ReaRoute driver, the latency is much too hi,- similar to Scope WAVE drivers.

I´m not talking about several MIDI drivers for more than 1 MIDI interface, - that´s working anyway.

Actually, I can only use ONE ASIO Destination for ONE ASIO application and it seems that´s how it was designed anyway.
Once any ASIO app is launched, may it be Reaper, Reason or whatever existing or any standalone VST synth, sampler,- it occupies the whole driver regardless of count of channels usage.

Even it was designed like it is, for me, that´s a waste of ressources.
It is also s**t,- Scope ASIO driver is only active if Scope itself is launched, there is no way to run Scope ASIO in background for other apps.

If the Scope ASIO driver is the only ASIO driver installed on a machine, it should be usable also for other apps even if Scope isn´t launched,- Scope ASIO driver should be active by booting the computer and stay in background even Scope is closed.
This would help w/ installations of other audio-software searching for a ASIO driver, assigning in- and outputs before any clashes become obvious if Scope is launched.

Bud

[garyb]

no it shouldn't because that's not how Steinberg designed it, nor is it how a Scope card works. there's always xtc mode, removal of the Scope i/o and replacement of a jumper and an RME standard windows type soundcard, but i don't see any reason(sorry about the pun) to set up the computer just for Reason. if you use 32bit, the there's no problem with rewise, since rewire only works properly in 32bit. complain to Reason about that. actually, complaining here won't help, but letting S|C know your preference might(although definitely not as fast as you would like). you're just going to have to make some compromises for the moment. what is so great and only available in Reason?

[Bud Weiser]

no it shouldn't because that's not how Steinberg designed it,

That´s right and I know that,- but it would be great to have it improved.
And,- the existence of that ASIO Multi Client beta, coded by Charlie himself,- shows he is aware of that limitations of the old behaviour.
Only the perfection is missing.

nor is it how a Scope card works.

right.

there's always xtc mode,

which is absolutely useless and not neccessary for live playing

removal of the Scope i/o and replacement of a jumper

which and where, please ?

and an RME standard windows type soundcard,

o.k., that might be worth a try,- I have more soundcards,- a RME Hammerfall 9652 and a Steinberg VSL2020 ...

but i don't see any reason(sorry about the pun) to set up the computer just for Reason.

if you use 32bit, the there's no problem with rewise, since rewire only works properly in 32bit.

you´re absolutely right,- I´m on 32Bit Win XP Pro SP3 and it works w/ Rewire (and Reaper).

complain to Reason about that. actually, complaining here won't help,

I´m not complaining at all, I´m satisfied w/ the card and Scope,- but I´m not a newbie, Garry,- and what doesn´t work today, might work in future.

but letting S|C know your preference might(although definitely not as fast as you would like). you're just going to have to make some compromises for the moment.

That´s what I did already,- I use Rewire and if I launch Reaper and my start project, the Reaper rewire channel incl. the Reason document loads automatically,- fine.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

what is so great and only available in Reason?

Stability & extremely low CPU natively,- compared to a similar count of VST plugins running in a VST host.
Small footprint of sample library sizes on drives (Refills vs. the sizes of other libraries) and therefore shorter loading times.
THOR.
I know I could use a Modular in Scope, but it might use nearly the full DSP power of my card, which would change by buying a Xite-1,- which is my plan.
But actually, that´s not possible for me and I have to sqeeze as much as I can out of the actual available ressources.

If one wants to use his favourite VSTis in realtime and in addition w/ Scope, these favourite VSTis can be very CPU hungry,- let´s say Zebra 2.5, Omniphere, large Kontakt multis or similar.
In that case and if you need more additional sounds, Reason can be a big helper, running 27 devices on a single core P4 2.8 as an example which isn´t possible w/ VST at all.
You cannot replace everything w/ Scope devices,- I don´t see good electromagnetic instruments emulations except B2003.
For acoustic pianos, Rhodes, Clavinets and Wurlies,- I need other stuff in addition and I also love my OPX-pro which is out in version Pro II since yesterday but needs more CPU too.

Well,- I love Scope for the Minimax, Prodyssey and more, replacing my real analogues.
I have a Minimoog, Oberheims, Rolands, modules, samplers, pianos,- but I don´t want to bring ´em out anymore.

Bud

[dante]

what is so great and only available in Reason?

I'm covering this in ScopeRise Nov - linking up Reason / Record / Cubase / Scope, I'm working on a showcase track with instruments from all 4 plus outboard synth.

I dont think it's a case of Reason having things that aren't available elsewhere, but it is a case of Reason/Record having the ability to do certain things quickly and cheaper, workflow and cost-effectiveness if you like. With the Record SLL I can build up a massive orchestral sound (submixed down to stereo for use in a larger Cubase/Scope mix) comparable for certain purposes (in a mix) to one of the larger orchestral packages but much lighter on CPU and the pocket (to this Ive added Kontakt LASS strings recommended by Jimmy - again light on the pocket ankyu).

I agree no point if you've already invested in EWQL and have a 64 bit system capable of running the biggest EWQL platinum 24 bit libraries - but not all user's are that cashed up

Reason/Record String Section

string-section.JPG (273.63 KiB) Viewed 4881 times

[garyb]

ok, Bud. i don't mean to be antagonistic.

here's a thread that might help, since the rumor is that the RME driver may work as multiclient:
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php ... xtc+jumper

[dante]

ok, Bud. i don't mean to be antagonistic.

No antagonism taken (or intended) - was just an excuse for me to post a big pic really

[Bud Weiser]

ok, Bud. i don't mean to be antagonistic.

here's a thread that might help, since the rumor is that the RME driver may work as multiclient:
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php ... xtc+jumper

O.k., thx for the link !
After a short read, I think I have to read it twice now because I´m absolutely new to XTC.
The jumper trick sounds promising in the case my 15DSP card will move over to my main home DAW after I can afford a Xite for gigging together w/ a fast rackmount or laptop.

Bud

[valis]

Honestly if you're considering a jumper trick to enable XTC just because you want multiclient ASIO, why aren't you simply using both soundcards? An ADAT cable enables considerably lower latency usage of the scope stuff though you would have to correct for any parallel processing by either sending it all via scope & back or time-aligning after printing, but otherwise that should be solid and your 'other' soundcard can be the primary host if it happens to have a more flexible ASIO implementation. Honestly though only RME's totalmix so far has proven to be more flexible than Scope's routing, and I find they're a great complement personally.

[Bud Weiser]

Honestly if you're considering a jumper trick to enable XTC just because you want multiclient ASIO, why aren't you simply using both soundcards? An ADAT cable enables considerably lower latency usage of the scope stuff though you would have to correct for any parallel processing by either sending it all via scope & back or time-aligning after printing, but otherwise that should be solid and your 'other' soundcard can be the primary host if it happens to have a more flexible ASIO implementation.

To be true, I never thought of that before and actually, my different soundcards aren´t build into the same machine.

Honestly though only RME's totalmix so far has proven to be more flexible than Scope's routing, and I find they're a great complement personally.

Well, my Hammerfall 9652 doesn´t have a Totalmixer, it´s not a HDSP 9652 ...

But maybem, the VSL2020 card could do this (?) ...

I wonder if it would be o.k. always, having 2 different ASIO drivers ( Scope & Steinberg in that case ) exsisting on the same machine, I never tried that before.
Does that work ?

Bud