Mic Pre

[fraz]

Hi,

I thought I'd start a new thread for this but is continuation of ftopics discussed a few weeks ago so shouldn't last too long hopefully. After a lot of natter here I learned of FMR Audio etc......quality mic preamps and what you folks here prefer to use. This has put me on a path to learning what is good out there to buy and what is not so good or maybe just average.

One piece of kit I got a while ago was the Behringer ADA8000 8 in / 8 out ADAT with 8 pre and will deal with 8 line level (mic/line)

Someone I know picked up an Edirol M16DX which is a 16 in digital mixer with audio interface and MIDI via USB. This also comes with 4 mic preamps and are described as "high quality" - The whole unit sold as retail for around £450 but can be got cheaper etc......in sales / price drops etc....

From previous discussions it would be useful to have some opinion here as to how good these pre-amps are likely to be. Always hard to summise without using them but in comparison to the pre on the Behringer ADA8000 for example are they likely to be better??? - or similar???- in sound quality...........

I'm just trying to build more of a complete picture for example I may buy the FMR pre at some stage which is £380 for two pre which are in the opinion of people here "very good" then compare say the Edirol M16DX £450 but the preamps are only a small part of this package because it's main purpose is to be a digital mixer which just happens to have 4 pre on it!!!!! - So I find it hard to gauge how good or bad these are likely to be.....I can summise myself but it would be good to hear some views here.....as it can be mis-leading for someone who is just learning about what is good/not so good/awful etc........ .......sorry if this post is in the wrong place I just dived in and started typing........ ..........thanks in advance.....

[netguyjoel]

I kinda like the Focusrite stuff..and they are in the UK

http://www.focusrite.com/products/saffi ... affire_56/

cheers!

Joel

[astroman]

...From previous discussions it would be useful to have some opinion here as to how good these pre-amps are likely to be. Always hard to summise without using them but in comparison to the pre on the Behringer ADA8000 for example are they likely to be better??? - or similar???- in sound quality...

if you followed the other discussions, you should be aware that a 'modern' so called high quality preamp is (more or less) just a chip with a powersupply. Pennystuff for a manufacturer like Behringer or even Focusrite.
Btw in the $5 DIY preamp examples linked by Shroomz even my wife liked the Behringer least - and she had no idea at all what she commented...

But just because the 'main' part of the preamp is fairly cheap, doesn't mean you can also build is cheap. The powersupply is very (!) important, as is the layout of the circuit board and the choice of analog components, their tolerance, selection(!) of parts.
That's what can make a few simple ingredients quite expensive.
In professional Neumann and Studer gear you will find tons of simple 5532 Opamps, a 20 cent chip that simply does the job if the circuit is properly designed.

If you want 'character' in a preamp, then it's a tremendous jump up in price - almost like buying art

cheers, Tom

[fraz]

Thanks Astroman - In your opinion which are the pre-amps with character??? - Just a short list would suffice, this would add more knowledge in this way.... ....and I will be better informed......so when future purchases are on the offing I'll be able to make a better decision.... ...Thanks in advance.....

I'll start off with what I learned here:

FMR Audio do the "very nice pre-amp" - This would qualify as a pre-amp with character wouldn't it???-

[Shroomz~>]

There's a small company in Holland that sell some serious vintage pre-amps and console channel strips with preamp & EQ for really good prices. They have some very nice Lola Audio, Philips, Studer & Soundcraft stuff. You'd have to be able rackmount & power them though, which is no easy task if you don't have a good idea what you're doing or know someone who does.

Have a look though. I know Tom will like this place if he's never been there before. MoFli

[garyb]

FMR RNP!!!!!

[astroman]

indeed Shroomz, a very nice site, didn't know it yet
you might consider the knobs on that TAB unit for one of your next designs (the blue and red ones)

I don't qualify as a mic pre expert at all - I just noticed the possible bandwidth with instruments at the Basstaster site and of course with my own vintage preamp.
First of all there's something in the tone of a really well built unit that's hard to describe, let alone to be read from specs.

the term 'vintage' is a two-sided sword, often applied as a marketing buzzword only...
But there's also an implied meaning which is derived from the engineering of those days.
People didn't design by specs in the first place, but by listening result. It had to have a pleasant sound.
Today there's often an ultralinear analytic approach. Sometimes you want just that, but it's by far the only way to go.

there's one very important aspect of true vintage gear, tho...
beware of it's low impedance outputs often less than 100 Ohm
at an input impedance of (say) 20-45KOhm of a Scope card this may end overbrittle with no 'magic' left at all.
Needless to mention some hardware skills are required (nothing you cannot learn), otherwise that stuff may get quite expensive if you have someone to configure it for you.
There are companies specialized in that domain, some even recreate the old designs.

regardless if new or old - the (typical) pricetag of gear with such a relatively narrow focus on customers almost requires extensive testing in your own environment.
Audio examples can be stunningly misleading (!)

cheers, Tom

[Shroomz~>]

Btw, do some searching around about the Art MPA Gold mic pre. Very reasonably priced & they're apparently very nice sounding, especially if you swap out the tubes. People are swapping out the tubes in them for telefunken etc. Total cost including replacement tubes is quite low for a mic pre with nice character.

[Shroomz~>]

Less than £300 in the UK seems like a nice option for the MPA Gold, especially since it has variable input impedance & the tubes can be swapped out for others that offer a different sound. Since it's 2 channel, it's possible to swap them out for 2 different tubes as well, so that you end up with 2 different sounding preamps in one unit. I'd consider going for one of these or the FMR myself.

~Mark

[garyb]

the MPA Gold over an RNP?

a perfect example of glitz over function.

such features rarely lead to better recordings, especially in that price range.

of course, having the MPA as a pre is NO excuse for a bad recording either...

[Shroomz~>]

No, it's not glitz over function Gary. I only mentioned the MPA Gold because it's getting a big reputation in the engineering community as being an excellent sounding mic pre for it's price if you take out the stock tubes which are cheap & fit it with good ones. Something like the Berry V-verb is another example of this; it costs buttons & is made by a company with a questionable rep for quality, but is actually building a reputation as a GREAT sounding reverb for it's low price. It also looks quite flashy, but don't let that put you off....

Just like Astroman though Gary, I'm absolutely no expert on mic preamps - not at all & I would never claim to be either even if I had 10 grands worth of pres sitting here.

Still think that MPA Gold would be well worth the money it costs if you upgraded the tubes.

[garyb]

No, it's not glitz over function Gary. I only mentioned the MPA Gold because it's getting a big reputation in the engineering community as being an excellent sounding mic pre for it's price if you take out the stock tubes which are cheap & fit it with good ones. Something like the Berry V-verb is another example of this; it costs buttons & is made by a company with a questionable rep for quality, but is actually building a reputation as a GREAT sounding reverb for it's low price. It also looks quite flashy, but don't let that put you off....

Just like Astroman though Gary, I'm absolutely no expert on mic preamps - not at all & I would never claim to be either even if I had 10 grands worth of pres sitting here.

Still think that MPA Gold would be well worth the money it costs if you upgraded the tubes.

sure it would(!), just not as one's only or number 1 pre, imho. if the budget is limited, it's better to have something cleaner, more transparent and useful for all kinds of signals. for this, i'd never choose a cheap tube pre....also, the stock tubes might be great. ALL TUBES COME FROM THE SAME 4 OR SO FACTORIES. the difference between brands is testing. some companies reject more tubes than others, but the "bad" brands are still likely to provide great tubes, they're just also more likely to provide bad ones due to poor screening.

ultimately, there aren't many bad pres, just bad one's for this or that and there plenty of subjective opinion about how that works. naturally, the performance is a much bigger factor. my opinion is not law....

[Shroomz~>]

Here's a track buy a guy called Chris Edwards that he made recording the acoustic & vocals through his MPA Gold with upgraded tubes. Chris Edwards - Girl

More info about his recording & discussion about the MPA Gold in this thread

~Mark

[astroman]

the guy seems to have a really good voice, but I didn't like the recording at all.
Overbrilliant and slightly harsh to my ears - wondering what convinced the other slutzes, tho...
the examples recently postet here in the SSL/Neve comparison are a full class ahead in my ears

cheers, Tom

[Shroomz~>]

To be fair, the guy used EQ & compression when mastering it which obviously moves it away from the original recording. It could also be his mic choice, but he posted a reworked version later in that thread & there's quite a few others that posted sound clips using different mics, converters etc. I've read quite a lot of people saying that despite the fact that they've got expensive boutique options, they also like the MPA. When I say they're 'upgrading' the tubes btw, those guys are replacing the new/modern stock tubes with different flavours of vintage ones, so they're spending $150 - $200 on a couple of tubes which isn't far off the used value of the MPA.

[astroman]

well, indeed I only read the first page, oops...
but then the comments were about that version and the vocals didn't change fundamentally (if at all) in the remix.
I'm not sure if it's the preamp or the rest of his system/software, I just don't share the overwhelming appreciation for that particular result - even more in that particular forum

cheers, Tom

[netguyjoel]

Does this crew have any suggestions as far as bang for the buck??

A few reviews...poor, good, better, best & the $ needed to obtain them??

Currently I use the cheap stuff..just cuz I make a lot of noise, not really crystal clear vocals or instruments.....

just a thought guys...

[nightscope]

cheap

Doubles as a frisbee.

http://www.planetdj.com/i--NOTEPAD

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soundcraft-Spirit-F ... 5005r11596

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... tepad.html

M-Audio Tampa. Discontinued. VERY cheap now on ebay. Digital out. Excellent compressor.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tampa-M-audio-mic-p ... 1012r13871

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_maudiotampa/

ns

[netguyjoel]

Well ALL RIGHT!!!

That's 1! Anyone else...come on...

[nightscope]

Well ALL RIGHT!!!

That's 1! Anyone else...come on...

Look above. 2 added.



ns