Recording mics with Scope

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fraz
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Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Hi,

I thought I'd start a new thread just to ask about recording and to overcome one or two of the problems - Currently just have the Shure SM58 and the monitor speakers are the Yamaha MSP5's on the PC with Scope.....

I have recorded into the Scope but had a feedback issue - I was aware that I was trying to get a good signal that could be easliy heard and btw I use Scope at home so it's a control room and live room in one......... :lol: ......Anyway back to feedback I was starting to think that if a serious take was done would I be best to get a headphone amp, mic up, turn the speakers down amd record while monitoring through headphones? - Is this the best way forward? - Or is it best to have the signal coming through the speakers? - I thought there was a feedback loop being created by the sound coming out of the speakers then going bcak down the mic then out the speakers ad infinitum..... :lol: .....creating a horrible noise........ :P

Having learned how to use Scope and now having more time to pursue music etc.....recording is the next thing....so all the help possible is needed........to get on to the next level...Thanks in advance.....
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by Immanuel »

Learn the pattern of the mic. Pint the least sensitive angle in the direction of one single speaker and play back only from that speaker. It will give you a few extra dB before feedback - especially, if you are kind of (but not too) close to the speaker, so there is a bigger ratio between direct playback level at mic position compared to room reflections at the mic position.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

I would say you're going to want your speakers off. Even without feedback you want to try to isolate the music being recorded from anything else (be it several people playing at once or a single musician.) The ideal way to achieve this is by using some sort of external monitor controller, so that you have access to a mute button (useful for this situation) and a volume/gain knob to attenuate your monitors. Having something that facilitates using the same setting(s) easily is a nice added bonus.

If you're needing to hear a click/metronome or the music you're accompanying, close backed headphones are the way to go for the person being recorded. If you're on a budget there are tons of inexpensive options for the 'monitoring' use for the musicians, and then you just need a decent close-backed set yourself so you can make more accurate decisions about mic placement (is everything sounding ok?) and eq/compressor settings etc.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Thanks Valis,

I've just logged on now to start a thread about headphones and which are best to buy but you've mentioned it on this thread so I'll start here. I'm new to recording which is a new subject matter but I like the progress but there is a way to go yet.... :D ....After recording someone on guitar and getting feeback - I paused, thought about it all and realised that it may be best to turn the speakers / monitors down.

I did do a foundation course in sound recording which was very basic but it did teach me a little about studios etc.....and I realised that at home the live room and control room are the same thing and even if someone is recorded in another room there isn't the isolation that you would have in a pro studio setup with a separated control room and live room. Sorry for ranting on, just giving some background info.... :D .....

Anyway, I figured it may be best to get a simple headphone amplifier (after thinking about it for a day or so!) organise a stereo mix from within Scope via ADAT a dest then plug the headphone amp inputs (which I haven't bought yet....!) - into the outputs of the headphone amp then voila......headphone mixes of the stereo sum of Scope.......then monitor this whilst I or someone else plays and records into host software like FL Studio / Orion / etc.....this is the theory of it......and with the mic attached with some good headphones I should be able to get a reasonable recording..................

Anyway headphones - I've been looking at the Bayerdynamic ones which come in the following flavours:

open-semi-open-closed- - This terminology means nothing to me - Please explain...... :wink:

Headphones that I'm interested in: DT880Pro-DT100-DT150-DT770-DT990 All good cans - Would all of these be suitable?
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Valis,

You mention an external monitor controller - Is what I mentioned above what you were talking about? - Or is it something else like an external mixer?
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

Headphones: You have 2 different needs there, headphones for the engineer (you?) during recording, and headphones for the musician(s) being recorded. A short while ago I created a thread called Headphones for Mixing... where I was focusing in mid to top-grade headphones for my intended uses (not-recording) so it includes a fair number of semi-open and open-back headphones you probably shouldn't consider. But the discussion will be somewhat informative anyway and hence worth reading to avoid repeating too much here (imo). Also you maybe don't need ANY of those headphones on that list if you haven't anything to work from already, but the information is still worthwhile. If you're on a VERY limited budget I would probably consider a budget pack (or etc) of headphones, some retailers even offer packs that include the headphone amp such as this AKG MiniAMP / K99 Headphone Two Pack or this Sennheiser Sennheiser/ART Studio Headphone Pack (both chosen from a quick site search, not necessarily putting my recommendation behind them). I would consider my 'engineer' set of phones a separate purchase...

I would personally choose to use 2 different monitoring 'sends' as well, leaving the engineer's as flexible enough to monitor what you need and then use an actual 'send' (usually used for effects by digital folks) for the musician to hear him/herself in the context of a 'mix' that makes sense for them. The latter is important because they may request to be louder in the mix, or perhaps to just hear the main instrumentation and drop the fluff in the background that's obscuring their sense of tuning, etc. As for the former (engineer's send) how this works will differ on how you setup your routing, whether you focus on one of the larger STM mixers in Scope or just want to cable it all together using dynamixers & micromixers. Any one of these aspects could be an entire thread...

How to go about getting those sends out...is yet another discussion. Probably your 'engineer' monitoring chain will be the same signal that's sent to both your physical monitors and your headphones. Getting a monitor control that allows for a headphone output as well as muting/attenuating your physical speakers used for monitoring will be a big help. And then to get the send out to your musicians...well you might want to consider using one of the behringer ADA-8000 units or something similar. You'll get more than your single set of sends as a bonus, which could be useful both in other ways.

Lastly for monitor control, you have a HUGE variety of options from active to passive, cheap to expensive. There was a recent discussion here also titled Mackie Big Knob vs. SPL Volume 2/8 which focused initially on the Mackie as the 'active' example and the SPL unit as the 'passive' model, but I believe a large number of options are covered including the final 'DIY' route that the thread stands at currently.

At the end of this you're going to wind up with a huge gear list, which I think is common for most of us. Write down your options for each stage and plan purchases carefully, with an eye to both keeping your current budget under control but also getting something flexible enough to not limit you in the long run. $19 headphones for your musician are not going to be a help if you have to toss them out anyway due to leaking into the mic at the volumes the musician wants. Opting for a 'budget' $150 monitor controller and then tossing it later realizing the $350 unit is more to your needs, wastes that $150...etc.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Hi Valis,

The speakers are powered MSP5's and have a level control......As for the Behringer ADA8000, I already have one connected.....did you read the thread just above your last reply? - I mention one of my plans / options of using a headphone amp connected to ada8000 via adat for musician headphone monitoring whilst playing.....
h
The other option you mention is adding something after the L+R Out on Scope that would have the speakers plugged into as well as headphone outs and volume control......
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

fraz wrote:Hi Valis,

The speakers are powered MSP5's and have a level control......As for the Behringer ADA8000, I already have one connected.....did you read the thread just above your last reply? - I mention one of my plans / options of using a headphone amp connected to ada8000 via adat for musician headphone monitoring whilst playing.....
Sorry I can't claim to actually remember *everything* I read :P But yes it sounds like your ADA-8000 is going to get some use!
fraz wrote:The other option you mention is adding something after the L+R Out on Scope that would have the speakers plugged into as well as headphone outs and volume control......
This would be the 'monitor controller', such as perhaps the SM Pro Audio M-Patch 2
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Thanks again Valis - I've been searching like mad today - Really don't like spending all this time looking into stuff but it needs to be done. Anyhow, I've found another Behringer gem - Monitor Matrix Mixer Minimon 800 £40 under audio solutions on their website. I realsie that Behringer are not the best but I need a start point and before discovering this I didn't know these things existed so when you wrote monitor mixing I really didn't understand...... :roll: ........but from Behringers site it's for folks who don't have enough outputs,,,,,,,,,,,,

Just to be clear I was all set to use the ADA8000 for this purpose of headphone monitoring etc........but now this other Behringer Minimon800 connects to the audio card outs (in this case the L+R out on Scope) and from there on to the Behringer MiniAmp800 and it even has a talk back function.........I haven't bought these yet but if they do the trick I may as well go with these as they are cost effective and I still am a novice and it may be the best way to go........

The two products are
Behringer:

MiniMon 800 Monitor Matrix Mixer £40
MiniAmp 800 Headphone AMP £45


One connects to the other and there is room for three sets speakers A b+c though the volume on b+c is shared so they recommend a sub woofer instead of two sets of speakers

Could you do me a favour and check these out on http://www.behringer.com ? - I think they will work and the only thing I need to do is sort out a good ish set of hi fi speakers and amp to tie in with these for monitor mixes.........

From you talking about headphone mixes within Scope I get lost on this though I know the aux channels are used but maybe I wouldn't need to do this anyway thats another discussion - All I need to know for sure if these Behringers will do what I need to do - Time for a cuppa now............Thanks....... :lol:

Edit ; I read through another part of your previous post and yes I'll plan this more carefully now taking longer to put everything together - At least the Behringer option is there and is affordable......but if I plan more carefully other more expensive options (but good) will become more apparent too and would be used for longer maybe.....like Garyb said good kit will last.............
Last edited by fraz on Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

valis wrote:
fraz wrote:Hi Valis,

The speakers are powered MSP5's and have a level control......As for the Behringer ADA8000, I already have one connected.....did you read the thread just above your last reply? - I mention one of my plans / options of using a headphone amp connected to ada8000 via adat for musician headphone monitoring whilst playing.....
Sorry I can't claim to actually remember *everything* I read :P But yes it sounds like your ADA-8000 is going to get some use!
fraz wrote:The other option you mention is adding something after the L+R Out on Scope that would have the speakers plugged into as well as headphone outs and volume control......
This would be the 'monitor controller', such as perhaps the SM Pro Audio M-Patch 2
I've checked out this link for the M Patch 2 and it looks interesting - Do you know of a distributor for the UK?

Looking at the connections for the M-Patch 2 there is a

L+R input for the Scope L+R Out
1 X Output for MSP5 speakers
1 X Output for Amplifier for hi-fi speakers to reference mixes

aux in - would this be used to connect a headphone amp? - do they have one of these too?

I'm just trying to picture how it would connect

Edit: Someone said I wouldn't need nother headphone amp as this unit has one....if I was on my own playing / recording then that may be true but if anyone else was invloved then then I'd be stuffed.... :lol:

Is it right to think that the M-Patch stuff is way above Behringer? - oh I checked the price with the uk distributor and it's £95 for m-patch 2. They do do a headphone amp hp4e new product but uk distributor hasn't got it on it's website yet......maybe I could get by with the good headphone amp on the M-Patch 2 and like Valis said above the engineers one and if I need more headphone amps for musicians then it wouldn't really matter if I got a cheapo Behringer as well..... :lol:

If the M-Patch do had one or two more on it would give more versatility......
Last edited by fraz on Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by Tau »

fraz wrote: Looking at the connections for the M-Patch 2 there is a

L+R input for the Scope L+R Out
1 X Output for MSP5 speakers
1 X Output for Amplifier for hi-fi speakers

aux in - would this be used to connect a headphone amp? - do they have one of these too?

I'm just trying to picture how it would connect
The aux in is to connect a different input other than your Scope card (cd player, etc....). You can switch between the sources. The M-Patch 2 has a built-in headphone amp, so you don't need to get another.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

BUT! The headphone amp is only for the 'main' monitor mix, Ie, your mix as an engineer. The Behringer is almost certainly not going to be a passive device that leaves the signal uncolored, but with your current monitoring chain you probably won't notice the difference anyway.

For the musicians you'll have to see if the ADA-8000 has enough output to drive whatever headphones you wind up with or not (this is why headphone amps are used for sends to musicians). Typically in a small setup as yours, you'd run the un-amplified cable over to where they sit and then stick the headphone amp next to them so they can gain up or down as needed.

I also wasn't suggesting the entirety of what I outlined was necessary, you shouldn't think you need it ALL at once. Just figure out what you're lacking most currently and start there... I consider a monitor controller fairly essential, as it allows gain adjustment as well as *protecting your speakers* should something happen. You're probably going to find in the long run you'll upgrade your monitors as well eventually.

I think THE MOST IMPORTANT THING when buying new gear (studio toys) is to limit yourself to what you can actually LEARN AND USE when making purchases. Buying a bunch of stuff all at once means you'll probably use half of it for the time being, and by the time you learn to use the rest you'll likely find your abilities and needs have outstrapped the gear you bought at the time (since your perspective has shifted or become more informed etc.)
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Yes as confidence / ability to complete tasks increases / knowledge then I could see replacing stuff. I'm not going to get a load of stuff but the monitor mixer I can see is important - The M-Patch link shows it has it's own volume control so as to not need to alter the main mix in Scope, this isn't available on the Behringer.

The ADA8000 doesn't have any headphone ins on it - It's 8 in/out mic/line - ADAT - No phones.....you did realise this didn't you? - They have a separate product for this.

You mentioned mixing chain (and main monitor mix), if I had the Behringer minimon 800 (monitor) then the miniamp 800 (head phone amp) this is all after the L+R out on Scope (main mix) will this affect anything - My thinking was it may be better to hear the whole mix whilst playing/recording........

The current setup is ADAT source into a scope mixer - mic in 1 channel------ADAT dest from L+R out (ctrl room)
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

Yes I know what the ADA-8000 is. Also what I'm suggesting is you use your channel 1/2 stereo pair as the 'main mix' for your use as an engineer, and setup an ADDITIONAL pair of outputs for the musician's "send" mix. In theory you could just grab a cable that sums 2 separate phono jacks (1/4" to us yanks) to a single stereo jack of the sort that a headphone plugs into. An insert cable like this one could be used to do this in theory (in actuality insert tips are slightly larger so this would probably be too 'snug' into the ADA-8000 and the headphone jack would wiggle as if it were 'loose'), but the y-cable idea should be apparent. However most headphones also won't get enough volume from this even with max gain (unless they're VERY cheap) and so that's where a separate headphone amp comes in (like the miniamp 800, although personally I'd opt for an ART unit instead of behringer if I were shopping from the budget vendors.)

I'll let someone else explain how you setup a separate monitor send for your musicians using the STM mixers, I never do this (I have a hardware mixer I can do this on). Suffice it to say you can have it match your main mix exactly if you want, or you can adjust the individual balance of what you send to it as you see fit. This is important because you might want to do something like add reverb to the instrument you're recording in the musician's "send" without affect what you're recording, or add a bit more of whatever they're playing/singing so they can improve their pitch and sense of timing, etc... There's about a half dozen ways to accomplish any routing task in Scope once you understand things well enough so...
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Thanks Valis that does make a little more sense........The SM Pro M-Patch 2 - I notice it has 2 outs.....would these have to be for powered speakers? -

The MSP5's are powered and that would use one of the outs on the M-Patch 2.....any new ones would also be powered (probably)
Could the other stereo out on M-Patch 2 go into a little amplifier to attach a pair of hi-fi speakers (home ones)....???......If answer is yes......can you recommend a little no frills amp that would fulfill this purpose.

Really just trying to think this through......I'm with you all the way on the "engineer monitor mix".....especially if I record someone else........

Is the M-Patch Pro 2 just about the best thing available at the price??? -

If all is OK above - Then that would sort the master out (main mix) and monitor out / HI-FI speakers .......issue would be sorted out......which would just leave the headphone amp which would connect to the ADAT ADA8000........and from here and this is the important part...........

What you wrote above about the musicians sends..........all would be taken care of (hardware wise) with head amp connected to ADAT ADA8000????
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

valis wrote:
fraz wrote:Hi Valis,

The speakers are powered MSP5's and have a level control......As for the Behringer ADA8000, I already have one connected.....did you read the thread just above your last reply? - I mention one of my plans / options of using a headphone amp connected to ada8000 via adat for musician headphone monitoring whilst playing.....
Sorry I can't claim to actually remember *everything* I read :P But yes it sounds like your ADA-8000 is going to get some use!
fraz wrote:The other option you mention is adding something after the L+R Out on Scope that would have the speakers plugged into as well as headphone outs and volume control......
This would be the 'monitor controller', such as perhaps the SM Pro Audio M-Patch 2
Following the link here above it takes you to the SM Pro website which feature some new products. One of these is the HP4E Headphone AMP with two stereo inputs A/B - I have a little confusion on the front panel where the 4 headphone outs are where it looks like there is a 1/4" jack input for stereo headphones and to the right of this there is another jack input which is smaller.....is this an 1/8" stereo input carrying the same signal as the 1/4" input? or does it have something to do with the A/B inputs?

Thanks in advance..... :)
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

It does look like each output has both 1/4" and 1/8" plugs.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

valis wrote:It does look like each output has both 1/4" and 1/8" plugs.
And these are for both outputs A+B which ever is being used???? - This sound right? - If it is flexible so if you have walkman phones you can connect.
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by valis »

From what I can tell looking at the unit, there's a small switch on each headphone output to select which input (inputs on the rear) you want assigned to that 'headphone output'. I would guess that the 1/4" and 1/8" plug are electrically connected and share the same signal for each of the 4 outputs. The switch simply toggles both between the 2 rear inputs.

Honestly fraz, I'm no salesperson nor am I an expert on everything out there. In reading your threads initially it seemed that you were attempting to get your Scope setup to do some recording, so I've been replying with what I could to fill in the gaps in your knowledge. My knowledge on this subject comes via being a musician for most of my life, but I am NOT an expert on all of these products. So anything I'm telling you about products comes from visiting the same web pages you are (that's a hint that a bit of research will probably turn up the answers you seek.) I'm confident enough in my understanding of things to respond and not feel like I'm giving you incorrect data or harmful direction, but you'd be much better served by doing some research on your own as well.

I think perhaps you might consider investing in a decent book or two on the subject of doing engineering & recording studio duties. Which isn't to say that you don't have knowledge in your own right, but it seems apparent that you have some gaps that could be easily addressed. There are several forums out there as well that focus primarily on recording & engineering duties like what you seem to be doing. I read them myself even though I don't typically record other people right now, but I do learn a fair amount just from lurking on them (reading but not posting).

Just off the top of my head here's some forums that might interest you:
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/
http://www.recording.org/
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/index.php

And some books:
http://www.amazon.com/Recording-Enginee ... 1932929002
http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineers- ... 0872887235
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Sound-En ... 0240804546
http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Micr ... 0872886859
http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Audio-Conc ... 0240520688

There are many more books on the subject, and there's likely to even be better books than what I've listed here. These are just the books I've come across over the last few years that apply to the questions you've been asking. I'm sure others here may recommend more as well. Apologies for the amazon.com links but it was the easiest place to find them all at once...
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Re: Recording mics with Scope

Post by fraz »

Thanks Valis, I have been doing a lot of research on products / websites almost non stop for the last few days..........I have one book but will get more if I need them. Whats happening now is I'm starting to get moving on things now because I'm able to do so.........and the learning curve has been ramped right up again initially but thanks for all your help because it has done just that.....I bought my first Creamware 10 years ago right at the start but there have been serious life events and thats why I've not got going more quickly...........

Research is what I do but recently I just plainly didn't understand and thats the learning curve kicking in / growth........I'll catch you soon Valis but next time I may have a SMR Pro.....M :lol:
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