Scope and Mixtreme in the same computer - will it work?

[Mixtremist]

I posted this in the KVR forum "Creamware Scope + synths" thread, and I'll post it here. I'm thinking about adding a Scope Project card to my live rig, which currently has a Soundscape/Sydec Mixtreme in it. Question is, how well does the Scope work with other cards in the same computer? I'm not giving up my Mixtreme because:
1. The ASIO drivers are superb - latency is minimal, drivers extremely stable.
2. The onboard DSP driven mixer is graphically simple, but sonically excellent.
3. I can plug VSTi's right into the Mixtreme's mixer channels - no need for a software host. The VSTi's still run, of course, on the computer's CPU, not the Mixtreme's DSP.
4. I've got some great plug-ins to run on the Mixtreme's DSP.

The Scope would be used for:
1. onboard synths - particularly minimax
2. MIDI I/O
3. onboard converters for analog outs

The ASIO VSTis would be driven by Mixtreme's ASIO drivers (but using Scope's MIDI I/O) and mixed down on the Mixtreme. The stereo submix would come out of Mixtreme's S/PDIF I/O and into the Scope's S/PDIF. Scope's synths would, of course run right off of the Scope card, and the synth mix would go out of Scope's analog I/O.

1. Has anyone ever done anything like this? If so, how well did it work? If not, can you think of a reason why it wouldn't work?

2. Has anyone ever successfully SLAVED a Pulsar/Scope Project card to 88.2k or 96k using S/PDIF or AES/EBU? I did read the entire "...What's up with 88.2?" thread from December, 2006 - I guess 88.2k is "iffy" at best. Since the Mixtreme S/PDIF output would go to the Scope card S/PDIF input, I would obviously want to clock the Scope card from S/PDIF. While I admittedly will very seldom use 88.2k or 96k while playing out (VSTi oversampling algorithms take care of that need), I want the capability to be there. I occasionally use the rig for recording.
Thanks in advance for responses.

[darkrezin]

There's no reason why it won't work, except possible weird incompatibilities between hardware, but that remote risk exists with anything. Chances are it will be fine.

I don't use high sample rates so can't offer help on the 2nd question. Scope can definitely slave to any sample rate but it's possible you might need the sync plate and use wordclock for this to work. I could very well be wrong here though.

[hifiboom]

the only thing that could be a bit critical is that all scope delay based effects, like reverb and delay use the host memory, as scope has only a very small ram, so when you load many reverbs the pci bus has to ahndle a high load of data, whereas the asio driver of the mixtreme will also affect pci bus transfer bandwidth.

so when using both heavily there is the option that you get into problems...

This for sure also depends on your system setup, motherboard and all other variables...

I had a similar problem with an Waldorf AFB-16 Analog Filterbox that was connected to a usb pci-card installed into a system also holding my scope cards.
when I used both scope reverb and the afb at a same time I had drop outs in the reverb.
Pretty strange. But I have to say that the AFB-16 was a buggy box anyways and wasn`t really a finished product and really extremly critical...

I can use my onboard audio without any problems in parallel to scope.

[Mixtremist]

Thanks guys. Anybody else?

[Mr Arkadin]

Just to reiterate something that was on the KvR post - the spec given for Slave mode on one site has the Pulsar only working up to 50kHz - is that right? Obviously in Master mode you can get up to 96kHz but has anyone ever Slaved to 96kHz successfully?

Mixtremist, also try mailing Ralf Bach on rb(at)soniccore.com for an official answer from Sonic|Core.

[garyb]

slaving to 96k via sp/dif or syncplate works fine.

[Mixtremist]

Just to reiterate something that was on the KvR post - the spec given for Slave mode on one site has the Pulsar only working up to 50kHz - is that right? Obviously in Master mode you can get up to 96kHz but has anyone ever Slaved to 96kHz successfully?

Mixtremist, also try mailing Ralf Bach on rb(at)soniccore.com for an official answer from Sonic|Core.

Thanks. I appreciate you guys efforts to help, here and at KvR.

[Mixtremist]

slaving to 96k via sp/dif or syncplate works fine.

Thanks for the response, garyb. As a system integrator who builds Scope systems, do you have any tips to help bring my quest to fruition successfully? I build my own computer systems, so fire away with the technical stuff!

[garyb]

well,
Scope cards just shouldn't share irqs with other devices is the main thing...

not to be unfriendly or negative, especially since you've spoken so nicely to me , but i see no reason to keep the mixtreme with Scope, i just see a department of the redundancy department there(especially since projects mixed in Scope have won an Academy Award, and been nominated for two Grammies that i know of)......also, there are some good reasons to stick with 44.1k in a PC. 44.1k is all a good engineer requires for sure(though there are good engineers working at 192, 96 and 88.1k, but most of them work for ridiculously wealthy clients and can afford multi-million dollar setups...).

otherwise, i'd keep the messing about with the system to a minimum, just for stability's sake. my main tweek for the os is control panel/system/advanced/performance/adjust for best performance........

good luck! if you have any problems, i'm happy to assist if i can...

[siriusbliss]

Gary built a great system for me recently. It's kickin' my ass!

I'll post the specs soon - unless Gary chooses to.

I've built my own system for years, but frankly I just don't have the time anymore, so it's worth getting a system that is totally optimized for use with Scope.

On projects that used to bring my old P4C800/4G RAM to nearly a crawl are all running seamlessly now with Samplitude Pro, 4 monitors, Masterverb, bxDigital, etc.

I'm sure this system would handle both Scope and Mixtreme on the same system no problem.

Greg

[garyb]

thanks, Greg!

it's an E6850 with an intel G33 based motherboard. the machine has 4gb of ram and a cheapie EVGA Nvidia graph card.

[dawman]

GaryB makes Hunting DAWg's, no Poodles, or Chihuahua's.

My new box screams, and I have nothing but time to play with it.

I saw 2 Mixtreme racks at Larry Seyers studio. He actually got rid of his Scope card for them. But he never heard Solaris or Prowave.

Welcome to the Scope world.

A small bit of advice though.

Buy a Pro card. If you don't like it, it will sell fast, but if you buy a 6 DSP card and love it, you will regret just dangling your feet in the water instead of diving off of the pier !!

I play live and have for years with Giga, but a few years back added Scope, and there is no equal for synths made by them and the 3rd party guys.

I retired 2 of Oberheims best and have no regrets.

You will be an addict, trust me.

[siriusbliss]

well,
Scope cards just shouldn't share irqs with other devices is the main thing...

not to be unfriendly or negative, especially since you've spoken so nicely to me , but i see no reason to keep the mixtreme with Scope, i just see a department of the redundancy department there(especially since projects mixed in Scope have won an Academy Award, and been nominated for two Grammies that i know of)......

I tried to mention this in the other forum . Some very similar paradigms between the two platforms that have me wondering if it's not heading for overkill. Scope does everything that Mixtreme does and more, so why buy the extra Scope card just for synths, when you'll suddenly find yourself doing great mixes and adding an effect or two, and then, before you know it, you're ...uh oh...

Greg

[hifiboom]

Jimmy is right, for serious fun a scope pro is a must....

the hardcore daw user feels easily underpowered by one Scope pro also....

at the moment I have one professional and one project summing to 21 dsp and hardly rund out of dsp power. So its enough for me...

but it could always be some dsp more.

Sadly I have a 6dsp card lying unused around because my current board only has two slots...

[Mixtremist]

Well, the good news is, there are a couple of guys on the Soundscape/Sydec site who have used the two cards in the same machine successfully. Admittedly, these were first generations of both cards (Mixtreme Classic and Pulsar I), but they worked.

Now, the bad news....
The 6 DSP and 15 DSP cards don't look like they will fit in my computer case. I'm using an iStarUSA D-300AS 17.5" deep 3U rackmount. Great case, fits perfectly in my SKB 6U rackmount, along with some other stuff. I saw in a thread from December 2007 that a couple of people were discussing using this case for a low consumption PC. Well, unless someone has figured out a way to use this case with larger Scope cards, it looks like my project is dead in the water. Believe it or not, I just bought a Pulsar I card to connect to the Scope Project card for more DSP Sometimes, life just sucks. Any ideas? Before you suggest it, I'm not going to reconfigure my entire system just to accomodate Scope cards. Maybe if I didn't have my Prophet and my DSS-1, but I have them, so.......

Remember, I really only want this for the minimax synth, the MIDI I/O, and the analog outs. Is the Scope Project Home 4.5, coupled with the Pulsar I card, worth it? Or, is there some way to cram the Scope Project Classic I/O card into the case. Since it is a half length card, the Mixtreme fits perfectly.....

[Sounddesigner]

It's worth it by far. You'll be able to do what you want with the Home and pulsar 1. 7 dsp's is fine starting point. Once you taste scope tho you will want more, but atm you seem to have a simple use for SCOPE and thus 7 dsp's is more then fine. You'll need a stdm cable for both cards wich is only about $14 or so. There is a 4.5 software upgrade that will give you alot of the high-end synths at a low price - 199 euro (minimax,vectron,modular,prodysee,pro12, etc).

[garyb]

the cards are more valuable than the case.

jmho...

[Mixtremist]

Well, I ordered a new Scope Project card, and I bought a used Pulsar I card. I also figured out a way to use the 3U short-depth rackmount case that I have, to fit everything in. In fact, my 17.5" deep rackmount will now hold full sized Scope cards. I'm now looking for Gigabyte's 5 PCI slot P35 motherboard. I've contacted Gigabyte, and I'm waiting to hear back. My Mixtreme eagerly awaits his new buddies.

This promises to be fun...........

[dawman]

Happiness Abound.

I believe that Brotha' Man Tau from Portugal has the same case, and also uses a Magma chassis and laptop.

Sounds like you got it going though.

An alternative to your current set up.......

I have bought some of the ASB and Klangbox stuff, as it works and sounds great. If you find yourself wanting more DSP, just buy the hardware ASB's or Klangboxes to free up your current DSP's and get really sick w/ some of John Bowens synths. I have ProOne, Solaris, QWave, and ProWave and ProWave is my favorite for live use. It sounds awesome and you can add external RD II Modules like the Waldorf Wave Oscillators, Sample Oscillators, etc. It loads quicker than the other synths, as they have 900 parameters and require a little load time.

As You Would Say.......Just Play.

[Sounddesigner]

This promises to be fun...........

As well as one powerfull addiction . Welcome to the world of SCOPE where you'll never have enough.


P.S. Share your thoughts when the cards come also.