K2 Crossgrade

[dawman]

I am hoping that my purchase of Scarbee's Vintage Keys, which runs on the K2 engine, will allow me to crossgrade to K2 for a couple of Bens.

I really did not want to add another app to a stable rig, but I can no longer stand by and watch developers for GS3, and GVI do more of the same. I have to spend several hundred dollars to get an authentic D6 sound, because I love the funk and groove thing too much.

Since there are always people crying for more ( yawn,yawn ) symphonic stuff, this has forced me to go there. Actually it's a smart long overdue move. Why stay in one spot, and lack content. This is the problem though, everbody wants to be a one man orchestra. Good luck, as no symphonic library I heard to date, sounds close to the real symphony. Besides, I will fall asleep from boredom after 15 minutes of French Horns and Strings. Give me some FAT BASTARDS, that's what I like anyway. I find composition much easier when a large pallette of synth presets are handy.

Think about it. When you hear all these Orchestral libraries in use, they all go for the slow movements mostly, and long attacks. Try doing a Sonata for Strings by Haydn, or some simple old Eine Kleine Nacht Music. Sorry 2000 USD for more unrealistic strings is a frickin' joke. If slow attacks are the norm, I can use SI Symphonic Strings mixed w/ SI's Melotron, and it sounds quite good. I will only pay 2000 USD 4 Scope related gear / devices, or an authentic sounding library. I can't believe these forums that are full of articulate sounding chaps who actually believe they have the Orchestral thing down. The demos are a testament in un-authenticity. I have been looking for the string sound since my Emulator II days. It doesn't exist yet, and it will not happen until a " real " conductor who knows articulations and strings makes it.
Until then, I will avoid listening to any more demos that were meant to serenade some girl in a tower somewhere with lullabys, and slow movements. At least try Wagners Ride Of The Valkyries. Or play a dance synth groove so maybe the bitch will dance and strip her clothes off, and then you can avoid that slow kissing, slow string, wimpy shit.

[sonicstrav]

I have always found that slow attack of string samples annoying in these 'virtual orchestral' samples. It doesn't seem possible to get good articulation and real bite to the attack. To me the strings always have a slight electronic sound, a bit cold, feeble, no warmth.

On computers I find synth strings sound better - OK they aren't authentic but it's better than a fake imitation of the real thing - and you have the excuse to muck about with them as everyone hearing them knows it's a synth

[hubird]

use them without feeling the need to look at it as strings...

[dawman]

That's why I mix synths, or my re-sampled Melotron w/ SI's Symphonic using the legato performance. It helps, but I dare not use them for a string performance. I prefer to pass that right by, and wait for somebody to get it right eventually. A developer from Nova Scotia called Wavelore holds much promise, as I have discussed this with him, and his head is quite in the right direction. His first libraries are beautifully recorded, but he sells them for a such a ridiculously cheap price, that I fear he might not make it.

www.wavelore.com


Someday, while I'm still young, a developer with the knowledge of a conductor will do this for us, and in multiple formats as well.

Have you ever wondered why certain big time movie score pros have the best string sounds? They have a pro custom make them, and can hire the best musicians to perfrom also. These libraries are not spoken of, or released to the public. We get generic libraries, that are called the Ultimate, or Smart, or somebody puts their name on them.

A quality library would be worth thousands, if done correctly, and recorded dry w/ the option of adding your ambience. You will notice that everyone is trying to market convolusion reverbs, or impulses w/ their libraries also. This is equivalent to the big keyboard companies and pcm based synthesis of the '80's, and '90's. Does anyone remember how cheap, and shitty the D50. or M1 sounded w/o the sounds bathed in reverb and FX ?

They are figuring we are still suckers for FX, and can keep trying to sell overpriced, worthless content. Having a good demo is all that is needed. People automatically think they will sound like that. Then there are some that actually have shitty demos and still think that it's a good product. I believe the problem is that not many people have heard a live horn section, or symphony, and like most, are self absorbed in their " virtual recording studios ". One must get out and witness the beauty of live performances to really feel, and hear it done correctly.

I'm just tired of mediocrity with string libraries, and their endless superior marketing terms. I hope Wavelore gives us the real deal I lust for.

[dawman]

I actually have a demo of what I believe has many overlooked articulations for strings recorded by the Chicago Symphony under Leonard Slatkin.

It is Wagners peice Dawn, and Journey Up The Rhine. It is so beautiful, I wish to visit the river in Germany myself. That's what well recorded strings can do to someone.

Believe It,

[Crickstone]

Having grown up in the middle of a string section in the middle of an orchestra, I know what you are talking about Jimmy.

[dawman]

That's a big 10 / 4 Brotha' Man Crickstone.

[slammah2012]

The best strings I have heard are Modeled, not sampled and come from A.A.S. String Studio.....

The following samples display more versatality of the instrument(more of the picked and hammer string sounds like guitar kalimba,clav,)I wish there were more examples of the bowed sounds ( drums and organ sounds are not from this software)...............
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... Guitar.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... Circus.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... hrenia.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... pirit1.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... te-Lee.mp3
http://www.applied-acoustics.com/sound_ ... mesCap.mp3

[astroman]

LOL, that's a real good morning joke...
sorry for the sarcasm, but I'm currently 'tuning' my bass (new pickups etc) and punched it all night, so there's definetely string sound still ringing in my ear.
This is a complete joke, maybe an oscillation with a similiar amplitude curve, but in no way 'strings' - it is totally sterile.
What do you think will it sound like when they (dare to) switch the reverb off ?

to be honest my rant has only one reason - such sounds can be done on any decent FM Synth or the PythonPro (read Modular...) under SFP.
But this company constantly claims to be a step ahead in 'realism' of acoustic simulation and in the end it's just - marketing BS

cheers, Tom

[slammah2012]

to be honest my rant has only one reason - such sounds can be done on any decent FM Synth or the PythonPro (read Modular...) under SFP.
But this company constantly claims to be a step ahead in 'realism' of acoustic simulation and in the end it's just - marketing BS

Tom .......oh Tom.......
What a stupid comment you present....
I own a purchased copy of this A.A.S Software and in no way are the string sounds Sterile... With all FX off they are scary real...........and, unless your head is stuck somewhere in your ass.....FM synths don't come close......How could you rant on like that without trying it...................I know you haven't tried it based on your absurd comment.........

No fm synths deal with plectres,harmonic geometric positioning for excitation and dampining, fret noises with the termination module, string damping, enharmonic intonation control, body modles, pickup positioning, dampining noise at note off, all abled to be controlled and modified during a performance.... all before nearing a filter,eq, envelope, lfo,arp,chorus,delay,verb,.........................
Ahh but why bother selling you on this........grab another set of boilers and finish your session........

String Studio is Awsome String Modeling Software........giggle all you want....

[astroman]

I admit that my comment was based only on example 1 in your list, but since the source was the AAS site, I assumed they'd rather present their 'best side', than an appetizer

I have tried their analog synth modeller demo - imho overestimated in the very same way.
Yet I've heared DX7 presets that can easily compete with example 1 above, and the PythonPro (which I have) is capable of such tones as well, though it doesn't claim to be an accurate 'modeller'.

We may have different viewpoints about the application of such a program - I don't question it's usefulness for you at all.
Of course all that stuff is 'realistic' enough to succeed in any contemporary mix, 99% of all listeners are non-instrumentalists anyway...

cheers, Tom

[astroman]

Tom .......oh Tom.......
What a stupid comment you present....
...and in no way are the string sounds Sterile... With all FX off they are scary real...

you're right - it was a really stupid comment - I should have pointed out the obvious right from the beginning, as it's easily noticable...
(couldn't withstand and the demo was a quick download)

this is probably a close to perfect string emulation
... but it does sound sterile
then why does none of my humble instruments sound as boring as this emulation ???

because they are instruments
not just strings mounted to concrete poles
this is a nice synth source, but it lacks about 80% of what makes a real instrument.
they call it 'string-studio' and not instrument-construction-kit, as such AAS can't be blamed, but their presentation suggests that it's supposed to be the latter, at least regarding it's application.

in that domain it's a useless piece of crap, or did you find the hidden button for body attributes influenced by tune, time, position, playing intensity... ?
Sympathetic resonance ? Do you really want me to post a chromatic sample upwards on a single string of my bass to prove that this thing is sterile and boring by nature ?

It cannot be different, as it simply lacks the entities to modulate the sound triggered by the original oscillation.

cheers, Tom

[dawman]

www.kvr-vst.com

This is a VST forum, where AAS has always been hailed since the days of Lounge Lizzard, as well as the Moog Modular. I only needed to read the first two reviews to catch their drift. It seems to do plucked string PM emu's, but unless you intend to play pizzacatos all night, they say to give it a pass.
To me, it's just another virtual instrument, that will always be virtual. I have two libraries in Giga just to have more variety in articulations, and although everyone I know says they sound so real, they lack the realism as well. I will never buy another overpriced instrument or library again w/o auditioning it myself. It's too much money for something that can't cut the mustard.

I knew years ago I would always be restricted in what material I play when doing strings, and not much has changed. It is another Pedal Steel IMHO. You might get close, but no cigars.

[astroman]

... It seems to do plucked string PM emu's, but unless you intend to play pizzacatos all night, ...

it cannot even do pizzicatos, as what do you hear when pizzi-catting ?
righty, right - the resonance of the body and (possibly) resonating strings...
none of which is pictured by the program
the popdown 'body' menu in the program distinguishes between a 'guitar', a 'violin' and couple of other items - almost an offence in the face of any instrument maker.

cheers, Tom

[hifiboom]

virtual emulated crap?

I think in that department its better to take a good multisampled instument sample patch.

Like these 10 GB orchestra multisamples for kontakt or Gigastudio.

[dawman]

The libraries that are available are only capable of " movie strings ". If you ever have to cover what real violinists play as a section, forgeddabowdit. I actually have better luck with Gigaviolin as a jammin' fiddle, or Jean Luc Ponty fusion jams. But otherwise my choices are limited. Real sections have some many articulations that just aren't possible to do well yet. I'm hoping GS4 adds more performance features, but they really need to do their app like Creamware has where all controllers can be mapped wherever you need them. I hate using one hand when my feet have always been used on swell pedals, rotary pre's, and sustain pedals. In the studio no problem, but live I like 2 hands. In Giga and most sampler apps you have to use one hand for performance features, and then sacrifice 8 to 10 keys as well ! But they figured these features were for the studio. But even then I can't mute tracks or bypass effects like we do in scope. Funny, Scope is the best app for live work, period. It was a bonus that the sound quality is so fierce.

[astroman]

...But otherwise my choices are limited. Real sections have some many articulations that just aren't possible to do well yet. ...

Some years ago I've had the pleasure (or rather the priviledge...) to attend a Hilary Hahn concert at the local hall, which has a world class acoustic architecture btw.
It was amazing, most of all as you could clearly notice a complete symphonic orchestra 'getting into the groove'. They started quite reserved, needed time to warm up - and the conductor did a great job to get the vibes going between the musicians and the audience.
Needless to mention those violin soli were to die for - there will never be a way to 'emulate' that type of emotion - never

cheers, Tom

[slammah2012]

in that domain it's a useless piece of crap, or did you find the hidden button for body attributes influenced by tune, time, position, playing intensity... ?
Sympathetic resonance ? Do you really want me to post a chromatic sample upwards on a single string of my bass to prove that this thing is sterile and boring by nature ?

Agreed, There is not much in the way of "body resonance" controls
There are 3 or 4 sizes of guitar,violin piano , user, and non body as well,... the controls are a balance between the cavity volume and direct string volume and there is a low and high time damping of the body resonance.......

There is no sympathetic resonance,

however I must admit sympathtic resonance can "add" all the bad recording qualities of a player that can't properly dampen his other stings while playing a 1 string chromatic scale.......

virtual emulated crap?

I think in that department its better to take a good multisampled instument sample patch.

Like these 10 GB orchestra multisamples for kontakt or Gigastudio.

How can you change the excitation point of a pre recorded sample,Genius???


On the String Studio....Playing position is available in the geometry settings in 2 ways ..... It can be held at a ratio based on tuning (like a sample or like a piano's striking area on a fixed string) or can be based on position of string length regardles of note or finger position.....
like a pick or bow playing in a equal spot over the body while the termination(finger) moves...... in reverse you can excite the string in different locations on a repetitive note using modulation sources to alter the location....the same goes for dampining.....the termination model (neck) allows for the firmness of the termination point (example finger soft,Steel Slide hard) mass(downward force on neck) and hardness(the density of the neck fret system itself) light mass against a hard neck with a soft finger will produce fret buzzes and rattles.....

Check it out more indepth.....

be sure to Turn on the Models you want to explore enabling the green button on in the corners......

[dawman]

I must commend AAS on the quality of their marketing skills. It seems like every aspect was thought of, and mimicked. I use CW's Physically modelled Six String in conjunction with samples to get more variety and authenticity. The best of both worlds.

But samples and physical modeling both have a long way to go.

I wish that there was an app that would combine the best of both worlds to give us a more authentic sound, w/ multiple articulations via PAT and CC's, but at the end of the day, it will still be virtual.

One important characteristic that is overlooked in all these attempts is the actual recording and synthesis of the percepted sound. From a performance standpoint, ask any string player that is told where he must sit how the Contrabassists sounded. All of that is entrusted to the conductor, along with his control of the articulations and dynamics, so we then become the conductor, but have little in the way of tools for control, especially when the recordings are all close mic'd, w/ virtual body, and space added as an after effect. But we must use the tools that are available. I'm just relieved that I only need to use these in a studio enviroment, instead of live where first takes rule.

Besides, when I do string sounds live, I mix different libraries / synths according to timbre. In this way I can get more variety. The same applies with Brass and Reed libraries. Nobody makes an all in one app, I wish someone would though. For instance, just to have a decent variety of horns, I have Qauntum Leap, First Call, VSL, and Bowens ProWave ( BTW I use all of his synths, sorry to say no PAT on the new Solaris ), but was never happy with my section sounds. But recently a developer remembered Maynard Fergusons contribution to the instrument, and released a Ballsy collection of Lead trumpet w/ some really quality samples amd articulations. I can now use a couple of fingers and a foot for section sounds.

We should all be glad that most people who don't record or perform live are as picky as us.


Strength And Honor,

[tgstgs]

to emulate a real string instrument is very dificult;
there are a lot of vars involved;
how to control these vars?
ive done a few tests with guitarstrings;
to give you the short version:
the sound depends on the used string itself;
on the position of pluging the string (not only the location on the string also the angle of the pluging)
on the pluging style (finger, plectron, nail etc. . ) even the nails itself (long short) makes a differece;
if you plug up or down;
if you hold the other strings or not;
!!my tests where made on same body only steelstrings!!!
analysing the spectrum
finaly:
a A is not a A it depends on where you play and how;
to play (control) such a instrument on a keyboard live uahrrr . . .
better take a guitar and learn to play it . .
-----------
its possible to make a virtual guitar to sound like a real one with all variationes,
but it would take time to program like Mr. Stradivari took for his violins (1 - 3 years)
do you want to wait?
do you want to pay the manhour it takes;
in these fast times where everyone wants all for nothing? and pronto please;
-----
this in mind i think its a good emulation

good vibes from vienna