The Low Frequencies....

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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FrancisHarmany
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The Low Frequencies....

Post by FrancisHarmany »

Hi,

I only dream what my music will sound like on huuuuuge soundsystems. Of course its my goal to have my drums blast out of walls of speakers :P

I have no idea when the low end will sound "muddy" or "crowded" on such big
systems. I was hoping the people with some more experience will point out some
simple tricks to keep the drums pounding :)

I usually cut everything below 40/60 hz on the channels which do not hold the kickdrum(s)! But other then that I dont really do much yet...........
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Mr Arkadin
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Post by Mr Arkadin »

To be honest unless it's bass/kicks i usually cut at 80Hz and move up from there - anything up to 200Hz probably, often around 120Hz. Really, if it's not adding anything useful get rid of it.
fidox
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Post by fidox »

hi,

yea, i have the same question,

i'm making electronic music,

where to put low cuts and hi cuts when using kick and bass,
kick = kickMe (Adern)
bass = minimax or prodyssey

ok, first i can get decent kick i want, then i add bass, when playing bass on cw synths , frequency is like "dancing" from weak to stronger, if i listen VST bass synths there's much more "stable" bass sound,
should i sample bass from cw synths and use it in sampler, so bass is fixed ?

what should i try , or avoid, i'm not using any mastering tools when comes to final mix, i just enable little compression on kick and bass, but not so heavy,

i'll be very happy for any tips ,


thanks ,


matej
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hifiboom
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Post by hifiboom »

fidox,
If the bass it not stable on Minimax and Prodyssey, I would recommend to switch of the chorus fx in the effect section....(additional page)

Especially with Prodyssey synth I get some very decent bass sounds.

IMO much better than with every VST synth...
fidox
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Post by fidox »

hi,

thanks, but i don't have any additional fx enabled, everything off,

i know they sound much better than vst ;)
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hifiboom
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Post by hifiboom »

fidox wrote:hi,

thanks, but i don't have any additional fx enabled, everything off,

i know they sound much better than vst ;)

okay, :)
so you don`t like the movement in the bass sound itself?
fidox
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Post by fidox »

yes true, don't like movement of bass sound, like it's not fixed at same frequency all the time,

i just make comparsion with vst bass synth, cause it's seems to be more stable sounding, if you know wha i mean, not the quality, which ofcourse is better in scope ,

but i have one tip for making bass in modular, gonna try that next time :)
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Mr Arkadin
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Post by Mr Arkadin »

Real analogue oscillators drift, so a real Moog (or whatever) will not sound the same from note to note - it's the same on 808 kicks, that's why samples never sound right because they're at the same point in the oscillation every time, whereas the real thing drifts over the course of the song. A lot of VSTis probably don't bother with that so that every note will sound the same.

To me the differences are where the life and character of a sound lie, the things that make synths instruments rather than sample players, otherwise you may just as well use samples. Sample a note off Minimax and it will play the same every time like a VSTi if that's what you really want.

i assume you've tried double-clicking the frequency knob of the oscillators in each section to get them spot on zero, just manually turning them to '0' isn't accurate enough and will still result in drift between the oscillators.
petal
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Post by petal »

I believe the explanasion is that on Creamware synth, the oscilators are running all the time, even when no notes are playing, which means that the phase of the oscilator is not fixed at the same point each time you hit a key. This is how hardware stnths works. The reason why you would wanna leave out this "feature" would be to save CPU-cycles.
hubird

Post by hubird »

fidox, do you mean that the same single note (like a D#3) sounds floating, or that different notes seem to have different pressure levels?

If the latter is the case, the reason can be:
1. it's the way the synth reacts, mostly there's a small perfect range for a bassline, specially beneath it the pressure disappears easily
2. your room and your monitors produce dips and peaks at different notes, dependent of the frequency of the note.
Your monitors might have a resonance peak(s) or dip(s) at 40 to 120 Hz (the real bass range).

About kick and bass: it's common (but not a law) to have the kick peak at 80 Hz, and the bass around 60 to 50.
The kick will stomp your breast (lungs), the bass somewhere lower at your stomach and below.
You could use the Vinco to glue them together and compress the levels a bit in a natural way, but take care for the transients of specially the kick.

For dance you need good lows, I wouldn't use the strategy of Mr Arcadin for dance :-)
I always cut everything below 40 Hz, but the levels will depend on the character of your lows.
The filter is a curve, playing with the level and the frequency you can determine the proportions of the different lows.

Remember, a filter creates some artifacts at the cutoff freq, you get a
resonant -S- like curve around it, a peak or a dip so to say, you prob know that.
This is specially the case when using a 24 db mode.
Agressively cutting below 40 Hz will create a peak at 40 Herz somewhere between 2 to 6 db!
The plugin that cares about exactly this phenomenon is the ISON by D-Vice, it is capable to flatten that -S- :-)

Another thing to mention is your monitor level, the volume you have while mixing.

Your ears react different to different volume levels, regarding lows (and highs) perception, therefor the knob 'loudness' on (old) hifi gear which compensates for that at low levels.
To know how much lows you wanne have at a certain volume level can be difficult, depending from your neighbours ;-)
The only solution I have is playing a cd (or better a succesful 12" made for dance) which you know well and has great lows in the club.
I often use the Graphic EQ for precise lows leveling, making 'natural' curves throughout the level faders you avoid -S- curve artefacts.
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hifiboom
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Post by hifiboom »

you could build yourself a mod patch where all the oscillators are synced to note on....

so all notes you play will sound more or less the same, if thats what you want.... :P
wolf
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Post by wolf »

some suggestions, harmany :

- a comp on the bass with the kick sidechained as damping ctrl. signal to i.e. avoid too much boom at certain occassions or keep the kick in front
- encode mix signal into mid-side -> cut lows of the side signal below 150-250 Hz -> decode back to L/R, this helps to strongthen the signal bottom and therefor perception
- in that context a correlation meter feeded via lowpass/highcut at ~300Hz helps a lot
- experience
- total spectral balance (but also between bass and kick)
- luck (provoke it i.e. by playing the kick while searching for a bass sound)
- limit yourself to a set of kicks/basses/strings/keys/etc. where you know how they'll sound on big systems (this is, what most really succesful producers do .. they never start from scratch, everything needed is preloaded, even eq settings :lol: )
- try to get bass & kick grooving together (very important for the final sound) by a good combination & micro arrangement of rythm, frequency & attack/release behaviour, also via the comp mentioned above)
- record kicks as audio to avoid midi drift (which is important for the sound, too, not just the timing since timing and sound are deeply connected)

.. just to name a few possibilites ;)
Wired
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decode to left, right

Post by Wired »

wolf,..if i cut about 250 for side using the brainworx, how do i decode back to lr?
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alfonso
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Post by alfonso »

don't forget that also the room can be extremely significant for bass response if standing waves and unproper treatment are present.
wolf
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Re: decode to left, right

Post by wolf »

Wired wrote:wolf,..if i cut about 250 for side using the brainworx, how do i decode back to lr?
I'm shure, brainworx does the decoding for you already. Basically for decoding the same circuit is used like for encoding.
Wired
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right!

Post by Wired »

right, i thougt that was it
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firubbi
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Post by firubbi »

first we need to fix our room.
http://www.realtraps.com
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