Hi,
Please don't hurry answering that creamware has Vinco or the das plugz.
All these are based on same atoms as are the simple compressors and more complicated like slim-jim (which sounds really nice by the way).
I don't just mean the looks but a true close emulation like uad1 does when they release every new plugin like their latest neve additions !
Can the scope platform cope with that ,or someone can only use what sdk has to offer like basic compression/expansion etc and build on them ?
I really would love to get convinced that DAS SL9000 sounds very close to SSL9000 plugins but no, there is no comparison in sound although DAS sounds nice on its own way.
Vinco is also based on simple scope compressor thing ,so no true emulation here !
I wonder if anyone could answer this and I would definetely support any efforts towards this route by paying up front for any promising device.
I am sure ,based on their products, Celmo, De-Vice and others could do that but maybe they are concerned that not many are gonna buy stuff like this because this might need much time for developement that could not pay back...
Regards,
Dimitrios
Can scope plugins be made to emulate real hardware like uad1
what? all compressors must sound exactly like a uad-1 to sound like real hardware?
in a hardware compressor there is a dsp. does this make it fake and software?
does the uad-1 plugin sound exactly like a vintage 1176?(i'll give you a hint, noooo.)
do you want them to copy the uad plugin? why? why not just get the uad-1 if you think it's the only good one. personally, i think the scope vinco is as good as any of them. it's a good compressor. two different hardware 1176s don't even sound identical!
as to the ssl, that's a proprietary algo. it's a secret. one must guess and approximate the process, so the emulation is an art. as to which sounds better, well that's rather subjective, although when copying some thing, i usually bet on the original. often the original can be improved, but then on e must want the sound of the updated version to think that it is "better". there are many cases of this, such as fender tweed and blackface amps. tweeds are "better", but not always. both are equal in quality. the same with a blackface and silverface fender twin reverb. neither is always better, although most choose the blackface. play 100 of each, though and you'll find some silverfaces that are better than almost all of the blackfaces, or even are the best sounding, depending on the music and the player's needs and preferences.
as a post script, maybe you are looking for more highend emulations and of course, i'm all for that but personally, i don't need my tools to be the famous great one, i just want them to be great, so i don't care if they are an exact emu of this or that, that's mostly a sales issue to me. i want them to really do their job well. in this i'm i total agreement with you though msurgio, we need more focus on studio tools, there's been more than plenty synths of late!
in a hardware compressor there is a dsp. does this make it fake and software?
does the uad-1 plugin sound exactly like a vintage 1176?(i'll give you a hint, noooo.)
do you want them to copy the uad plugin? why? why not just get the uad-1 if you think it's the only good one. personally, i think the scope vinco is as good as any of them. it's a good compressor. two different hardware 1176s don't even sound identical!
as to the ssl, that's a proprietary algo. it's a secret. one must guess and approximate the process, so the emulation is an art. as to which sounds better, well that's rather subjective, although when copying some thing, i usually bet on the original. often the original can be improved, but then on e must want the sound of the updated version to think that it is "better". there are many cases of this, such as fender tweed and blackface amps. tweeds are "better", but not always. both are equal in quality. the same with a blackface and silverface fender twin reverb. neither is always better, although most choose the blackface. play 100 of each, though and you'll find some silverfaces that are better than almost all of the blackfaces, or even are the best sounding, depending on the music and the player's needs and preferences.
as a post script, maybe you are looking for more highend emulations and of course, i'm all for that but personally, i don't need my tools to be the famous great one, i just want them to be great, so i don't care if they are an exact emu of this or that, that's mostly a sales issue to me. i want them to really do their job well. in this i'm i total agreement with you though msurgio, we need more focus on studio tools, there's been more than plenty synths of late!
non cw comps
i have uad, and duende, and das's and had tried powercore, ..garys right regarding vinco, but you have to drive it a bit to 'hear' its compression and saturation, ...das's emu's of neve is very accrurate, i tested the same parameters of uad's 1073 and das's and it gave me the exact same eq result, even better because i didn't have to go thru my daw, (i like to stay on the sharcs if possible), das's sl9000 sounds very unique, the eq is very smoooth and musical,.. just like duende and the comp and gates are wonderful, das has unique compression, ...don't listen to what people have posted , you have to use your ears to get to the truth, ...you have to follow the people with sound engineering experience, not just computer programming experience. ...Otherwise get one good outboard comp like ted fletchers tfp38 which does la2a, 1176, c4 and vca
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hubird
Re: non cw comps
hm, looks like D*S has found it's PR agent alreadyWired wrote: ...das's emu's of neve is very accrurate, i tested the same parameters of uad's 1073 and das's and it gave me the exact same eq result, even better because i didn't have to go thru my daw, (i like to stay on the sharcs if possible), das's sl9000 sounds very unique, the eq is very smoooth and musical,.. just like duende and the comp and gates are wonderful, das has unique compression, ...don't listen to what people have posted , you have to use your ears to get to the truth, ...you have to follow the people with sound engineering experience, not just computer programming experience. ...Otherwise get one good outboard comp like ted fletchers tfp38 which does la2a, 1176, c4 and vca
strange yet, that (same) style of combining both praising the one and accusing (between the lines) the other...
Re: non cw comps
well, it's known that SFP has a very good sound...Wired wrote: ...das's emu's of neve is very accrurate, i tested the same parameters of uad's 1073 and das's and it gave me the exact same eq result, even better because i didn't have to go thru my daw, (i like to stay on the sharcs if possible), das's sl9000 sounds very unique, the eq is very smoooth and musical,.. just like duende and the comp and gates are wonderful, das has unique compression, ...
but that's a harsh comment directed at Neve and SSL - DAS doesn't pretend to 'circuit-analyze-and-model', they arrange what's available in basic audio building blocks...
I do NOT devaluate that approach at all, if it sounds good - it is good, but assuming that your judgement is reliable, it would mean that all the superexpensive gear is just a fake - or for the owner's vanity...
cheers, Tom
c'mon guys, no conpspiracy here
you guys know there is no conspiracy here, for 99 euro, . you gotta be nuts not to get the sl9000, its a different sound than anything in cw, much softer,and smoother ... along with dynpara, ...its a matter of the ears, not the intellect or if you don't like the guy, ...some of us are just simple sound pilgrims, ...i love the ssl product, and lets face it there are sharcs on it, but i will never not use the sl9000 or neve emu's, ...and uad is not that great, for 250 bucks a unit,..das has that covered even duende's new drum strip is only 175. and i have an api a2d which i put my audio thru, using the 312c pres for pass thru, on and on we go, ..now i'm getting a wordclock, .....
To create new atoms you'll have to work for InDSP or Sonic Core, or closely with them. You'll need a lot more than just the Scope SDK or DP. However having DP alone didn't stop Red from creating the stuff in Flexor, as he's said in the past he's just using the low level math stuff and stringing it together as you would in c. So it's not entirely impossible to do new algorithms using existing atoms, it just takes a bit of talent
However I don't think that all bets are off for the userbase in regards to getting new high quality studio tools. The amp & cab modelling stuff is entirely new afaik, for instance. In regards to 'is it possible to build emulations', ask Bowen or any of the current Sonic Core guys about the modelling they've done for the Pro One or any of the later synth emulations. I don't see why they can't do the same level of modelling for any other gear.
I do agree with garyb though, I am less concerned with name brand modelling than I just want the models that I press into service to sound good. Good enough to make up for my sometimes lack of ideas? probably not
However I don't think that all bets are off for the userbase in regards to getting new high quality studio tools. The amp & cab modelling stuff is entirely new afaik, for instance. In regards to 'is it possible to build emulations', ask Bowen or any of the current Sonic Core guys about the modelling they've done for the Pro One or any of the later synth emulations. I don't see why they can't do the same level of modelling for any other gear.
I do agree with garyb though, I am less concerned with name brand modelling than I just want the models that I press into service to sound good. Good enough to make up for my sometimes lack of ideas? probably not
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digitalaudiosoft
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Re: Can scope plugins be made to emulate real hardware like
dimitrios,musurgio wrote:Hi,
Please don't hurry answering that creamware has Vinco or the das plugz.
All these are based on same atoms as are the simple compressors and more complicated like slim-jim (which sounds really nice by the way).
I don't just mean the looks but a true close emulation like uad1 does when they release every new plugin like their latest neve additions !
Can the scope platform cope with that ,or someone can only use what sdk has to offer like basic compression/expansion etc and build on them ?
I really would love to get convinced that DAS SL9000 sounds very close to SSL9000 plugins but no, there is no comparison in sound although DAS sounds nice on its own way.
Vinco is also based on simple scope compressor thing ,so no true emulation here !
I wonder if anyone could answer this and I would definetely support any efforts towards this route by paying up front for any promising device.
I am sure ,based on their products, Celmo, De-Vice and others could do that but maybe they are concerned that not many are gonna buy stuff like this because this might need much time for developement that could not pay back...
Regards,
Dimitrios
vinco and das are not based on same atoms.,vinco use more logical script than us,but it's possible to emulate plugins,only when you have use the true hardware.i like vinco.
that's the reason why das sl9000mc is really different than sl bi-mode.(and both are using same comp atoms).olive has even decided to make a comp without using cw atoms,only using logical script.
lots of things are possible when it's you true work and when you understand what is a sound.that's the reason why,rmx 160 is not a stwp100,why poltec do not sound like sl9000 v1 and v2,why n1084eq sounds close to uad1.why polteq is close to urs plugins.
and poltec use same eq atoms as sl9000...so,when,the 2 professionals here who think knowing all on all ...will understand that combinaisons of cw atoms + hidden parameters can make different result ,you will never read polemics about das work.(even if they have opened the devices,they can't see lots of important hidden parameters...thanks my god...so,they will never understand...because they have never use a true hardware and are only forum's professional )
one the most principal reason,is that they think that there is only one sdk and only dp...and they are wrong again.some of dev use the same sdk as creamware...
about das sl9000 and what you call ssl9000 plugins :
there is no ssl9000 . waves have made the very good ssl4000e plugins,but it seems that you have never worked on this true console because,it do not sound like waves plugins too.that's the reason why i have decided to make a sl9000 v2 closer to wawes,but always not like the true ssl4000 console...i had the true console and use it and love it.
about duende,it emulate a c200.
we think it's not possible to emulate true hardware and we have explained it in another topic,but you can have a good approach,like rmx160 and neve ams rmx16.and don't need to have a nice design for that...some of you have recognize this sound philosophie with the first horrible design...(it was mine...)
eric
ps: i don't know if we have found a pr agent ,but planetz have some stupid members...always flaming peolple who find our plugins good.hubird wrote: hm, looks like D*S has found it's PR agent already
strange yet, that (same) style of combining both praising the one and accusing (between the lines) the other...
wired is one of our customers,he buys plugins instead of removing protection module,he can be proud of it ! and i will never let you insult one of them !
emulations
Ok ,
So the real answer is that there cannot be real emulations with scope but just nice devices either using atoms,hidden parameters, scripts, whatesover, right ?
When I was talikng UAd1 I just said real hardware emulation LIKE UAD1 succesfully did.
The reason I sold UAD1 is that I use Paris which has NO latency compensation and was tired of moving backwards audio files and having each time to decide what is the latency...
I intergrated Paris with Scope via 32 adat channels so the ;atency is kept well under 80 samples.
I already have bought the Timeworks bundle which I really like the compressor and the mastering limiters !
4080L is also good.
From DAS the reverb is really killer and I will buy this on later time for sure.
Regarding the SL9000 I compared this with waves 4000 and I like the eq sound of Waves much better as they were soft and sweet as opposed to DAS which were more hard (which is not my kind of sound anyway)
The 1084 and api eq's really sound good from DAS and I am alos considering these two for buying too !!
I just would love though to have a compressor that sounds as nice as a LA2 from UAD1, I have never used a real hardware.
Up till now only Timeworks sounds nice to my ears and the demo of Slim_jim which I will also consider buying.
I DON'T LIKE VINCO never liked it although I bought this, have tried to fool myself that ok this might be good but no I don't like cause I believe it sounds "boring".
DAS has great graphics too.
I just would like though to have a LA2 a Neve compressor (like the latest from UAD1 !!!) on scope.
I was just asking if that is possible.
Regards,
Dimitrios
So the real answer is that there cannot be real emulations with scope but just nice devices either using atoms,hidden parameters, scripts, whatesover, right ?
When I was talikng UAd1 I just said real hardware emulation LIKE UAD1 succesfully did.
The reason I sold UAD1 is that I use Paris which has NO latency compensation and was tired of moving backwards audio files and having each time to decide what is the latency...
I intergrated Paris with Scope via 32 adat channels so the ;atency is kept well under 80 samples.
I already have bought the Timeworks bundle which I really like the compressor and the mastering limiters !
4080L is also good.
From DAS the reverb is really killer and I will buy this on later time for sure.
Regarding the SL9000 I compared this with waves 4000 and I like the eq sound of Waves much better as they were soft and sweet as opposed to DAS which were more hard (which is not my kind of sound anyway)
The 1084 and api eq's really sound good from DAS and I am alos considering these two for buying too !!
I just would love though to have a compressor that sounds as nice as a LA2 from UAD1, I have never used a real hardware.
Up till now only Timeworks sounds nice to my ears and the demo of Slim_jim which I will also consider buying.
I DON'T LIKE VINCO never liked it although I bought this, have tried to fool myself that ok this might be good but no I don't like cause I believe it sounds "boring".
DAS has great graphics too.
I just would like though to have a LA2 a Neve compressor (like the latest from UAD1 !!!) on scope.
I was just asking if that is possible.
Regards,
Dimitrios
[sidenote] Eric, I'm a bit disappointed that you still read with your prejudices - no bad words against Wired or DAS (from my side).
I will ignore your 'flame members...' as well as I ignore Wired's 'programmer irony'- no need to answer this btw [/sidenote]
First I wasn't sure (in quote above) if he referred to both hardware and software, but after re-reading his comment it's about Duende and the UAD 1073 emulation.
For reference here's a bit about the UAD Neve efforts and a SOS intro to Duende - check the 3rd paragraph.
there are several options to interprete Wired's statement, the most simple one reads Scope is tremendously underestimated - it can do almost out of the box what did costs the 'other dudes' a couple of years of their life
which would imply that it only lacks the proper label for (greater) success...
or modifying that consequence - whenever sound engineers see a label, they (even they) loose control...
I never claimed to compare those items because I simply don't own them, but I'm in accordance with Eric that you cannot faithfully 'emulate' (arbitrary) analog hardware.
Interestingly Dimitrios has a deviating opinion - I may assume that he paid a lot of attentions as it's going about his money...
And there's the matter of personal taste as well...
I really don't write this to personally annoy a handful of people.
If there's a point in Wired words, then it should be emphasized and 'sold in a trustworthy wrapper'
To gain the 'trustworthy' attribute, there have to be 'rude' questions asked.
They would be asked anyway, so better in a controlled environment and before dealing with possible 'real' products
cheers, Tom
I will ignore your 'flame members...' as well as I ignore Wired's 'programmer irony'- no need to answer this btw [/sidenote]
First I wasn't sure (in quote above) if he referred to both hardware and software, but after re-reading his comment it's about Duende and the UAD 1073 emulation.
For reference here's a bit about the UAD Neve efforts and a SOS intro to Duende - check the 3rd paragraph.
there are several options to interprete Wired's statement, the most simple one reads Scope is tremendously underestimated - it can do almost out of the box what did costs the 'other dudes' a couple of years of their life
which would imply that it only lacks the proper label for (greater) success...
or modifying that consequence - whenever sound engineers see a label, they (even they) loose control...
I never claimed to compare those items because I simply don't own them, but I'm in accordance with Eric that you cannot faithfully 'emulate' (arbitrary) analog hardware.
Interestingly Dimitrios has a deviating opinion - I may assume that he paid a lot of attentions as it's going about his money...
And there's the matter of personal taste as well...
I really don't write this to personally annoy a handful of people.
If there's a point in Wired words, then it should be emphasized and 'sold in a trustworthy wrapper'
To gain the 'trustworthy' attribute, there have to be 'rude' questions asked.
They would be asked anyway, so better in a controlled environment and before dealing with possible 'real' products
cheers, Tom
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digitalaudiosoft
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when i was 20,the true teletronix hardware was my favourite,that's the reason i have try to make one for me on cw.i have never found one like this one at this time...even in hardware.I just would like though to have a LA2 a Neve compressor
i study my work using neve console, it was in a french studio ( studio leo clarens ) ,where i met celmar (celmo) and his brother too for the first time.
celmo was (and is)one of the best sound synthe in paris.i have worked on sessions where he use fairlight ("d'une rive a l'autre",m.j***z /a.gol***n) very nice sound and very good feeling and arrangement.
that's not what i say...i say , i'm not able to make a real emulation.but,when you use analog preamp from scope,you have a closer approach than in all digital.So the real answer is that there cannot be real emulations with scope but just nice devices either using atoms,hidden parameters, scripts, whatesover, right ?
read wired topic about duende
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21480
eric
Last edited by digitalaudiosoft on Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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digitalaudiosoft
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@ astroman,
[sidenote] Eric, I'm a bit disappointed that you still read with your prejudices - no bad words against Wired or DAS (from my side).
I will ignore your 'flame members...' as well as I ignore Wired's 'programmer irony'- no need to answer this btw [/sidenote]
concerning the fact that you have opened a device,removed a protection module,don't give me the good felling to devellope new plugins for you or dimitrios....and has never helped cw with their insolvency procedure...
or ,maybe when i will forget this sad story.
the big difference btw you and me tom,is that i use to use those true hardware and i don't need sound on sound or planetz or you to understand what are those plugins or hardware.never mind..."a chacun son metier" french proverb.
eric
[sidenote] Eric, I'm a bit disappointed that you still read with your prejudices - no bad words against Wired or DAS (from my side).
I will ignore your 'flame members...' as well as I ignore Wired's 'programmer irony'- no need to answer this btw [/sidenote]
concerning the fact that you have opened a device,removed a protection module,don't give me the good felling to devellope new plugins for you or dimitrios....and has never helped cw with their insolvency procedure...
or ,maybe when i will forget this sad story.
the big difference btw you and me tom,is that i use to use those true hardware and i don't need sound on sound or planetz or you to understand what are those plugins or hardware.never mind..."a chacun son metier" french proverb.
eric
uad's comps are good, but not hardware
i think if you meant to say a uad comp is hardware, that would be wrong too, misurgio, ..they are good, ..but to be honest, that is why i bought duende, i traded up my korg radius, i only had to spend 600 canadian on the product, which is worth it because ssl claims its 'more' than an emulation. it really sounds good, .....and to astro, i never meant to slight the programmer thing, ...that comes from my relationship with an IT wiz i knew, but he couldn't spit out a mix cause he was wrapped up in knowledge of things but not gifted in mixing, ..i don't have the best ears and i'm not a natural when it comes to mixing, but i see that , that is the path i want to go. , you are wealthy and successful and probably do good music too i'm sure, i never knew you were an It guy when i made those earlier comments, i was just projecting my own stuff on the forum, ..my 'journy' into better ears, ....
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cannonball
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irrelevance
ssl
Hi,
So you bought SSL duende for 600 canadians only ??
If so I wanna buy it too !!
Yes the SPL is a very good example and while I have both SPL software and hardware I can say they are 98 % the same !!
So this is a good example that Scope can be used to emulate hardware.
So it is up to the developer skills efforts time and money to make 98% emulations of hardware stuff.
Regards,
Dimitrios
So you bought SSL duende for 600 canadians only ??
If so I wanna buy it too !!
Yes the SPL is a very good example and while I have both SPL software and hardware I can say they are 98 % the same !!
So this is a good example that Scope can be used to emulate hardware.
So it is up to the developer skills efforts time and money to make 98% emulations of hardware stuff.
Regards,
Dimitrios
I wouldn't complain about my revenues and though I don't consider myself greedy, I suffer (like most) from the fact that it still could be improved...Wired wrote:... you are wealthy and successful and probably do good music too i'm sure, i never knew you were an It guy when i made those earlier comments,...
But the source actually is... IT
(I may add that I once indeed considered DSP programming as a welcome addition to the database and publishing stuff, but (estimated) sales figures weren't convincing at all)
Nevertheless I am an audio passionate and demand (in a reasonable context of course) 'professional' results from what I use and what I listen to - and since I was a schoolboy I (mis)treated anything with a soldring iron that I could get my hands on
My taste may not be the most contemporary, though - in that sense it would be hard for me to give any commercially relevant advice.
I think we agree that to be a (professional) audio engineer is not about to show off with whatever individual hearing abilities, but to decide in a minimum of time what's appropriately applied to a track to make it sound 'successful' - for both the artist AND the customer.
I really found your comment interesting and honestly, if SFP synths are generally accepted as to 'rule', why not the production tools ?
cheers, Tom
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digitalaudiosoft
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Re: ssl
you are right,but when i say,i'm not able to make a real emulation,that's the same of 98% of it.musurgio wrote:Hi,
So you bought SSL duende for 600 canadians only ??
If so I wanna buy it too !!
Yes the SPL is a very good example and while I have both SPL software and hardware I can say they are 98 % the same !!
So this is a good example that Scope can be used to emulate hardware.
So it is up to the developer skills efforts time and money to make 98% emulations of hardware stuff.
Regards,
Dimitrios
have a look to our broadcast vumeters and the way we have made it :
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digitalaudiosoft
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it seems that they are true broadcast professional who do not think like you.astroman wrote:
I really found your comment interesting and honestly, if SFP synths are generally accepted as to 'rule', why not the production tools ?
cheers, Tom
fairlight,emt and tf1.
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21647
eric
it uses a custom DSP module, a mono and a stereo versioncannonball wrote:is SPL transient designer a real hardware emulation made with a specific
dsp or is built with creamware stock dsp?
your question is misleading, though.
eventually it's all the same machine code, regardless how it's packaged or called.
Anything that performs within measurable and listenable bounds of the respective device is a 'real' hardware emulation - even if it was written in VisualBasic
cheers, Tom