Lots of Questions!

[tomylee]

Hello,

I have lots of questions about the scope 14dsp card, and it´s almost a shame, that the creamware website cant give an online answer for all whats coming . so lets begin:

> Some vendors state "PCI board equipped with 14 SHARC DSPs for PC & Mac 3 different I/O options:
-Classic: unbalanced analog (RCA), S/P-DIF (RCA), 2 × ADAT
-Plus: balanced analog (XLR), AES/EBU (XLR), 2 × ADAT
-Z-Link: unbalanced analog (RCA), S/P-DIF (RCA), 1 × ADAT, 2 × Z-Link"

yeah, nice, but what about these options? Can I switch between them? Can i choose one when buying a Scope card? Can I change them afterwards? Do I have to buy something for being able to change these configurations?

ok next one:

> What about the scope mixer...can it load vst effects, or only the dsp fx? For example, if I use the scope Asio driver for my sequencer, can I then load UAD-Plugs into the Creamware Mixer? And what about the routability of the mixer, what should I want to route there? If I can only use DSP FX, then I wont need my UAD anymore, except as "pre" which means, I can use them before the signal goes to the scope mixer - is that right? It would be a restriction, because I´m pretty sure, I will not always want to use UAD before Scope plugins...but pleas tell me if I´m wrong.

>Modular III: So I assume I can create my own synths, but also FX with it - but then, where can I load them into? What about the mixer environment of the scope mixer? Can it load commom VST-Plugs too? Or how would you connect a self made FX (made with Modular III) into your environment? Is it even possible to make a VST compatible FX out of a Modular II patch, and plug it into the sequencer of choice, or is kind of this only possible in XTC Mode?

>Scope Mixer: How is the routing between Sequencer and Scope Mixer? Do I get a limited amount of channels to route to? I hears somewhere that I can change the Mixer, well, are there many digital mixer models coming with Scope?

>How can I test my PCI bandwith, I have an Nvidia chipset, and an Athlon 64, will it work, do the Scopes still have problems with AMD?

> I would rather not like to use the scope mixer at all, it seems to much of a hazzle for me, and I´d probably like to use this nice piece of hardware just as what it is - external hardware No seriously, I relly like the idea, that I can feed some signal to the scope, without any latency, let it do some fancy processing, outputting it again and recording it to my sequencer, which runs completely on RME 9652. Ok in this setup I would need the mixer for routing, but for mixing I still prefer my old 32x8 Mackie.

>And how does Z-Link work? It uses 2 Adats right? But can I use Zlink also with 2 of my RME ADAT I/Os?

But more than anything else I´m interested, how anf if the Scope works, when I neither use it In XTC, nor as with Asio Drivers on my host!! Because as I said, I want it standalone! Of course I would like to implement it somehow in my sequencer environment, but if this wont workt internally, then I´ll go through ADATs, I want my RME setup to feed my Mackie, and I want my Scope to integrate to my RME system, but I dont want to loose the Scopes I/Os of the by using XTC! So please don't tell me there is no standalone running mode of the Scope!! It would be pain in my anus!



ok thanks for responses in advance.

tom

[H-Rave]

First of all for the vst any any other plugins for that matter,No obviously they won't work on the Creamware/Sharc processors because they 're not the same processors.Its like saying, will the ssl Duende plugins work on a Tc Powercore,Obviously not.Creamware does has something similar,where it will run as VST Plugins,XTC Mode.The Z-Link runs by firewire cables One IEEE1394 firewire cable will transmit and recieve 8 Audio channels at 96 Khz
For the adat cables it transmits at 48Khz you need.I suppose if your looking for quality go for the Z-Link Option.If you buy a Creamware card with it's option,you can change it afterwards,but it's probably easier to swap it on this forum in the Scope purchasing forum.
for the Modular it's amazing.Frankly for the amount of Creamware dedicated plugins Instruments and Effects which come with it, even new it's a bargain The Creamware Minimax Moog Emulation IS the best .The mastering effects Will liven up ANY mix.What you should do is put a thread on the forum to try one out in Italy,You'll see for yourself.

Cheers

[Mr Arkadin]

Phew you're not kidding about lots of questions. i'll answer some, hopefully others can elucidate on areas i don't cover.

What about the scope mixer...can it load vst effects

No - the CW card like other cards uses it's own system. You can use effects in the VST environment in XTC mode, but you're still not directly loading VSTis into SCOPE.

Modular III: So I assume I can create my own synths, but also FX with it - but then, where can I load them into?

Eveything, including the mixer, is loaded into the SCOPE environment window. From there you can route anything to anything. You will be able to use your UAD, but i think you get latency issues with those cards.

Or how would you connect a self made FX (made with Modular III) into your environment?

Easy. ASIO out into Modular, Modular out into mixer, mixer out to speakers and ASIO input.

Scope Mixer: How is the routing between Sequencer and Scope Mixer? Do I get a limited amount of channels to route to?

You just use ASIO from your sequencer into the mixer. There are various mixers available - a 24 or 48 input one being the main two. Also there are many users here who run both CW and UAD cards - the nice thing about SCOPE is its flexibility in routing.

How can I test my PCI bandwith, I have an Nvidia chipset, and an Athlon 64, will it work, do the Scopes still have problems with AMD?

Don't know, but if you post your computer spec here someone (hi Astro, garyb) will be able to tell you if you're machine is up to it or not.

I would rather not like to use the scope mixer at all

That would be a shame - most users report a better sound bussing to the SCOPE mixers than using the summing in their Host (Cubase etc.). It really isn't that difficult once you get the idea, and once you've set up a default project it's easy peasy.

Well, not quite sure why you want to work standalone - you still need to record on a sequencer, but SCOPE sits in the background as a separate window anyway, so it does work exactly like hardware in that respect. If you can think of it, SCOPE can probably do it. And once you hear the synths...

[astroman]

lots of questions, and indeed I'm not sure if there's any link to the manual download on their ftp server, so here it is
ftp://ftp.creamware.de/Manuals/SCOPE/Manual/english/

you may load individual chapters (further down the tree), or the 'index' document plus the 'chapters' folder to be able to hop within the structure from a central point.

some basics, though:
the card comes with 1 IO-plate of choice (or with no plate at all as a 'DSP booster'), you can change it any time with another version, but they won't take the original back

you can 'patch in' external signals, either physical (say Adat) or software (Asio) at any point of the routing - it is NOT centralized around a mixer and not even strictly a matrix, as it allows loops.
Scope got input and output terminals - how those are connected and what's in between is entirely up to your phantasy (and the processing power of the board).

example: my guitar comes in on adat ch-2, I draw a virtual cable to asio-3 destination as that's the channel the UAD sits in the host - the UAD's guitar amp sends it's result on asio-3 source (seen from Scope) - so I draw another virtual cable to the input of a TapeDelay Simulator.
The output of the TapeDelay might be fed to a mixer channel, the direct out could go to (say) asio-12 for direct tracking.
I could as well draw another virtual cable from the Delay's output terminal to another Asio destination - to send it to a VSTi compressor instance, which is returned on asio... (you probably guess the rest)

as long as the routing would make sense with real gear, it would work as well in Scope.

of course this is not a poor man's time machine, so every Asio roundtrip rewards you with twice the basic Asio latency... but it's technically perfectly ok

you cannot load VSTi plugins into the Scope mixer (as you cannot into the Modular), as that is a different machine code executing (Sharc-DSP) and a different memory model (so to say).

for that purpose you have to use the afforementioned routing.
todays low latency architecture should allow quite sophisticated setups, though.

Scope as an external box on it's own (with Adat communication) works perfectly well - it's frequently suggested here, not only for those with an incompatible OS, like the Mac users...

cheers, Tom

[tomylee]

thanks astroman,

Is there something like propellerheads rewire in bidirectional way for the scope?

I really want to keep the RME as my default sequencer´s asio driver, because I do external analog mixing, and I have some Adat FX-Units and a very good preamp (isa 430 with digital option) which then I´d like to plug to the scope. (so I could apply lots of fx in realtime and have my external gear together)

You can probably see how desirable such an internal connection would be. If this possibility does not exist, the scope won't fit ergonomically well enough in my studio to buy it.

tHankS!

tom

[astroman]

well, there is no need for something like Rewire
according to the recent scenario you picture (in the post above), this is pure hardware signal-io, preferably by Adat.

just get a nice 19" case, a lame Intel socket 478 mobo (those PERL things GaryB suggests), 512MB, a slow 40GB disk , and a Scope Pro with Adat IO-plate, as you probably will use more than the standard 2x8 channels - you may have a studio clock, so a sync plate would make the integration perfect.

Scope as a hardware rig is a real no-brainer
it's interesting that this isn't obvious to you (more or less) immediately, as you don't give the impression of a beginner...
Looks like marketing failed on the simple things of life

in fact 'problems' reported with Scope usually have to do with the sequencer, OS, bad chipsets, that people would like 2 Asios in 1 host etc...
you could as well take a Pentium 3 with Win 98 and power the system up from a flashdisk - that's what I do btw - the flash thing has cost me more than the PC it's in...

cheers, Tom

[tomylee]

thanks for the help

Yes, integration with ADAT is no problem, but I´d loose one ADAT I/O with that, and I´d have to limit communication between host and Scope to 8 Channels! Wouldnt it be desirable to integrate Scope via some internal rewire-like bridging? Thats why I mentioned an immaginary bidirectional Rewire, that would be the ideal solution for me, but it seems like it does not work like that.

Right now i use 2 RME AEB-8 expansion boards in conjunction with one RME Adi8DS, in order to feed 24 Channels on the Mackie! One of the ADAT I/Os is obviously used for the ADI8, the others share their paths like that: 1AEB-8 (connected internally) shares with eventide fx processor at corresponding ADAT1, the other AEB-8 (also connected internally) shares its signal path with focusrite preamp at corresponding ADAT2! This config is ok, because you´re never gonna use an eventide fx through adat while mixing (I use it via spdif and analog I/Os!) same for the focusrite, which doesnt use ADAT Out (2) at all! And this configuration is extremely handy, because I never ever have to switch cables between mixing and arranging parts of work.
The only drawback is, that the AEB-8 converters are not really good...

I hoped I could raise the DA-Converter quality in my studio by somehow integrating an A16ultra - keeping the Adi8ds would give me 24channels in good quality on my desk, but for this to work I would need all 3 ADAT IO´s free! If I really had to waste an ADAT pair (I/O) for the connection between scope and rme 9652, I would only get a max of 16 channels for feeding the analog desk, or 24 with 8 of them via an AEB-8, wich woulde be sharing its stream with the ADAT that connects to the scope!

So comeon, the only thing that´d make the tears of joy fill my eyes would be some internal transport protocol from scope to cubase, without having to load the Creamware Asio driver in the host! As I said, just like rewire, but please both ways!

thanks!

ToM

p.s. I´m no beginner, but that does not keep me off asking questions pros dont care about.
p.p.s. If I´d use the Scope´s Asio Drivers, who would feed my analog desk then?? The RME? doh...[/u]

[astroman]

oops, looks like I misunderstood what you meant with 'standalone'

so first things first, the 'extended Rewire mode' as you call it is an absolute no-go.
such things are REALLY difficult to implement, just consider how long Access needed to fit their external Virus synth into the VST protocoll - and that is a joke in comparison to what you'd like to see...

I meant a physically dedicated box that communicates via Adat, and as such perform 'effectively' realtime (with sub-milliseconds latency for signal roundtrips).

if your current system is productive and you consider the workflow convenient (well, there's always something...) then I'd seriously vote AGAINST adding a Scope board to it.
It would have to communicate via Asio anyway, as the software channels are all occupied and the drivers and install procs would most certainly mess Windows.

an external Scope rig needs only the most humble hardware, a solid 19" case probably the most expensive part...
You'll get behind it's operation in just a couple of days as it's faking the regular studio setup - no (real) learnig curve either.

could it be possible to route some of your FX gear via Scope IOs (to free some RME ports) ?
Scope can easily act as a digital patchbay, too
2 Scope project cards with 'pro IO plate' would give you 32 Adat channels, 16 for the A16u analog stuff, 16 to communicate with the RME DAW, and 4 channels of AES/EBU

cheers, Tom

[tomylee]

Whow, I completely overseen the I/O adding effect of the cascading of scopes!!

This lets me think completely new about the whole situation, I think I will loose the RME 9652, because there I can get at max 24 Adat Channels and one SPDIF, thats not enough!

Thanks astroman, but just one thing I have to ask: would you help me consider a setup?

My dream always was to mix my mackie with 32 channels, this could become possible with some scope setup...just wich one to take? I figure I need 48channels for my purposes, 8 to go to RME Adi8ds, 16 to one A16u, another 8 for some other converter I will choose somewhen (more converters is good to have, because they taste all different in the mix!! ) - ok thats for the mixing, this would make 32 channels all Adat *

Then I´d want 8 for the eventide fx to connect, and another 8 (ok AES/EBU would work too here, but why take 2 AES channels, if you can get 8 ADATs instead?) for the Focusrite preamp with digital option!- ok these make 16 channels.

Adding to the 32 mentioned channels before, it would make 48ch!

Then I also like to have decent dsp-power. So one SCOPE professional would already do it, on the other hand, two SCOPE project cards would also be fine, as they probably give the same amount of channels as an expansion board and my mobo has a very good pci bandwith (MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum)

I just wish the home I/O expansion would also work with a professional card, as this would be the simplest way to go for the 48ch!.

So, if I chose 2xScope project, would there be a possiblilty to get the raw 6xADAT I/Os instead of all this "schnickschnack" (AES, SPdif, Analog I/O) hehe so say it in kind of german?

In that case, and seen that my mobo is predestined for SCOPE, I would sell my RME 9652, and use Scope´s driver in my sequencer, and benefit from all the internal Asio routing, I am right there, ain't I?

with my best
el Tom

*(All Adat and no Z-link because I want to keep the possibility to use the Adat outs for mixing, and the Adat Ins for something completely different, with Z-Link that option would be cut off.).

[wayne]

I think you're on to it, tomylee.

Caveat Emptor :- CW DSP's are addictive!

[tomylee]

I assume a Scope card without any I/O-Option is one with 3 Adat pairs, isnt it?
The cwaudio page does not clearly state this, so again I´m left with assuming...I bet you could double Scope sales with a tad better marketing.

If so, 2xScope project is all I need.

thanks guys for the help

I just wait for the last confirmation with this issue, the 3xAdat per board!

thx

tom

[wayne]

i/o are interchangeable - specify what you want to the dealer - lightpipe a-plenty.

[wayne]

.I bet you could double Scope sales with a tad better marketing.


tom

That's what we're for

[tomylee]

ok then, I´m gonna talk to the dealer about the lightpipe highway option...

thanks for all!

Just by the way: the reason I will buy SCOPE is the sound of the flexor, the "modularibility" and the low latency integration into my studio.

bye!

tom

[tomylee]

uh, just wondering now, If I choose only ADAT connections, I wont get Midi I/O...
But thats ok, if I can route Midi internally from my host to the Scope environment, is this possible?

just say yes

heh

tom

[wayne]

Yes - usb.

[tomylee]

great, great!

ok then, this is gonna cost something about 2000euros, and I need some...

so, somebody needs tannoy system 800 speakers, like new?
or an ISA 430 MKII preamp (i initially bought two of em) ?

the ISA is like new, no scratches no dust, original carton. -1945€
the tannoys are like new, too, go for 666€ each, wich would be a hell of a great deal.
oh, and who needs a lexicon pcm80? great condition, will sell for 780€!

size my studio down! - please!

hehe

bye

and THANKS

tom

[wolf]

uh, just wondering now, If I choose only ADAT connections, I wont get Midi I/O...
But thats ok, if I can route Midi internally from my host to the Scope environment, is this possible?

midi i/o is always part of the adapter .. afair two midi i/o ports for the adat only option.
physical midi i/o is tighter and more reliable than software midi i/o, btw.

cheers & much fun with your card(s)
wolf

[tomylee]

thanks alot for the help, all my questions were answered, until now

I have a new one: I buy one card with OS 4.5 and some unlocked synths, another with OS 4.0 and no unlocked synths, how will the authorizaztions handle be?

Only no unlocking for the card with 4.0 and on the other unlocked? Or will it be all the same for all cards, like with UAD?

cheerz!

tom

p.s. I will go mad on the flexor stuff...uh I loved the samples... hehehehe

[ali]

you install the software once with multiple cards

so you would install 4.5 version software with the new card.

the second card only the driver as it is only used as a dsp farm.