A16 converter quality.........opinions?

[areptiledysfunction]

I've heard nothing but negative reports about the quality of the A16 converter with comments like *dark, muddy, etc" being used to describe it's qualities. I'm wondering if these reports are referring to the older unit rather than the A16 ultra. I am going to need at least 8 channels of A/D-D/A conversion in my rig in order to interface external hardware in my mix scenario.......16 would be nice. I have been considering one of the RME converters that would interface with a Pulsar II via Lightpipe. These are a bit more pricey than the A16 Ultra (for 8 channels) sooo.......

............has anyone here compared the A16 Ultra with the RME ADI-8 converters and if so, what are your thoughts?

Other than the additional I/O options that are provided by the A16 Ultra, is there any advantage as far as conversion latency to using the ZLink option vs lightpipe (yeah I know.....we're talking a few samples, but in a mix scenario routing to outboard, the fewer to deal with , the better)

Thanks.

[garyb]

the a16 is very good. the rme may be just a little better. the rme has a slightly lower noise floor.

light pipe or zlink is very similar. without wordclock, zlink is a little more jitter free. with wordclock it's a tough choice as to which would be better. you have a zlink, it might be worth using just for that reason.

[kyunghwee]

I've gone through interfacing with SoundCraft Digital 328 desk via 16-channel lightpipes, Tascam DM24 via 8-channel lightpipe bus, & currently settled with A16 Ultra via a pair of Z-Links for 16 channels.
Digital 328 would've been my favorite if it didn't break every other week...decent mic-pre's & the most flexible in/out options.
Hareware on DM24 felt a bit too flimsy for the price & wasn't too impressed with their mic-pre's.

Other than losing mic-pre's & control surface from the desks, line-level feed on A16 Ultra is superb in my experience and I've been quite happy with it especially for the price.

Maybe I'm going deaf...certainly very possible, but I haven't noticed any 'dark' or 'muddy' qualities about A16 Ultra.
If anything, it sounds pretty transparent to me.

So here's at least 1 positive report on A16 Ultra from a fellow SFP user.
Best of luck to you on your quest for finding the best interface!
You'll have to let us know which one you decide to go with & how it turns out

[astroman]

I've heard nothing but negative reports about the quality of the A16 converter with comments like *dark, muddy, etc" being used to describe it's qualities. ...

well, you may check some of Wayne's contribution in the music section of the forum - all analog signals - and he uses a lot... passed that converter.

there may be a point to the statement you've heard, tho
those comparisons can only be recent, meaning the A16 may have 5 (or more) years of service, possibly with the internal fan disabled.
The unit can become quite hot (there's a design flaw in the power regulation) and this means the capacitors inside get more or less 'bakened' wearing them out long before their regular lifetime.
Capacitors are the most important (sound defining) elements when the signal travels through the circuit.

that's why I would suggest an old A16 as 2nd hand buy ONLY to someone who's familiar with a soldering iron.
for me it's sound is very balanced and 'honest' with a solid fundament, fits perfectly my 60/70's funk jazz vinyl taste - and well, yes that's muddy indeed

cheers, Tom

[musurgio]

DJ,
You could also use the luna in/out box if you have a z-link plate.
These are 24/96 and sound decent.
Based to waht I have heard A16Ultra is better than A16.
If you find the z-link plate, the one with the two adats and one z-link then Luna is highly recommeneded.
If you will use adat ports for external in out then you can choose whtever.
On cheap Behringer ADA8000 is a good solution , I like them.
ADI-Pro 8 are cheap second hand.
If you are gonna use the 44.1 sampling rate as I suspect while using Paris you can find the AD-PRO-8 (48khz) cheapenouph to go for it.
For 1000 $ you can find an Apogee 8000 used !
Regards,
Dimitrios

[areptiledysfunction]

In a "perfect world" scenario, this Pulsar II with the 2 x Zlink interface with the single ADAT I/O port and the coaxial s/pdif port, when combined with an A16 Ultra would provide at least:

16 AD/DA through the A16 Ultra
16 ADAT I/O convertible to 2 x pair optical s/pdif onthe A16 Ultra
8 ADAT I/O convertible to 1 x pair optical s/pdif on card plate
1 pair coaxial s/pdif convertible to AES voltage on card plate

.......all available simultaneously.......is this the case?

(in a fantasy world, the two ZLink interfaces could be used to onnect another A16 Ultra and have another 16 AD/DA plus another 16 ADAT I/O simultaneously.......are we in fantasyland here or does the second Zlink port also connect to the A16 Ultra? From the looks of things it does, either for the second 8 channels of AD/DA or one port provides the AD and the other the DA.......but anyway.....I would be satisfied with "perfect world" if fantasyland isn't possible )

Thanks

[musurgio]

DJ,
Here how z-link goes.
The two adat ports do not work on A16U when z-link is used.
You cannot have more than 16 channels on a two z-link (like two adat) ports.
Regarding the spdif are you sure it has one ?
The other z-link card (tao adats one z-link) has NOT.
Regards,
Dimitrios

[CarvinGuitarFreak]

Hi,
I have an Focusrite Octopre and an A16u. Both are excellent, cant say if one is better than another (very subjective this). I agree with kyunghwee, the A16u doesnt sound muddy and I dont know how anyone can think it is? I use Mackie 624 monitors, not the cream of monitors but v.good anyhoo. I use the A16u via ADAT connected to a P2 classic and use TLA 5001V2 as a pre, and it works perfect. I have also tested the A16u with my Lynx2 card, sounds brill.
CFG

[katano]

DJ,

I'm also really happy with my A16 Ultra, connected via Z-Link. I feed the A16 Ultra with a nice TFPro16 preamp, so what i want to say is that a good converter will also be feeded by a good preamp...

cheers
Roman

[areptiledysfunction]

Sounds to me like th A16U may be a nice addition to this package. I appreciate your feedback.

DJ

[musurgio]

DJ,
I am sure the "muddy" A16 wasprobably the A16 and not the Ultra.
Never had one although I would wanna try one...
Regards,
Dimitrios

[wayne]

I like my old A16 - does the job for me, 5+ years after i got it.

Truly, my emphasis is not so much on audiophile specs when making music on the CW system - i just like how it captures a nice sound and feel from brass, bass & things So maybe i'm the wrong guy to ask about mud

and Tom - you're too kind

[krizrox]

I bought an A16 Ultra shortly after it was released to market. I don't know if it was one of the first ones off the assembly line or not but I'm sure it was an early build. I bought mine from Infinite Vortex and it was one of the first units they received. I honestly can't remember what year this was 2002 or early 2003 when it came out? Anyway, I have nothing but good things to say about it.

It has a very clean, clear and yet somewhat warm tonality to it. Nothing harsh about it at all. I upgraded from a pair of those Luna 24/96 units and instantly noticed an improvement. The A16U had a wider, deeper tone to it. It has been my main AD/DA converter ever since. I don't know how it compares to anything else on the market at the moment but at the time it was the bomb. There weren't that many 16 channel units on the market back then.

This thing has literally been "on" 12-16 hours a day, almost 360 days a year since I have had it. With the exception of an occasional day off, it remains on. That is amazing! I wish all my gear worked that well. It just works. It runs cool thanks to an external PS. I love it and recommend it highly.

[areptiledysfunction]

I bought an A16 Ultra shortly after it was released to market. I don't know if it was one of the first ones off the assembly line or not but I'm sure it was an early build. I bought mine from Infinite Vortex and it was one of the first units they received. I honestly can't remember what year this was 2002 or early 2003 when it came out? Anyway, I have nothing but good things to say about it.

It has a very clean, clear and yet somewhat warm tonality to it. Nothing harsh about it at all. I upgraded from a pair of those Luna 24/96 units and instantly noticed an improvement. The A16U had a wider, deeper tone to it. It has been my main AD/DA converter ever since. I don't know how it compares to anything else on the market at the moment but at the time it was the bomb. There weren't that many 16 channel units on the market back then.

This thing has literally been "on" 12-16 hours a day, almost 360 days a year since I have had it. With the exception of an occasional day off, it remains on. That is amazing! I wish all my gear worked that well. It just works. It runs cool thanks to an external PS. I love it and recommend it highly.

Thanks,

I am currently using RME converters, Mytek converters and Paris converters. They all bring something nice to the party. The Paris converters also have what I would describe as the "warm tonality" with nice detail when they are clocked with a good external clock (I use a distributed Mytek house clock here). this makes me wonder if perhaps, besides the other *issues* with the older A16, that jitter might have been a factor. If you've ever tried to mix when referencing a D/A converter that is prone to jitter you will understand why people hate it. If the older A16 (and I am only speculating) did not have accurate clocking, this would explain some of the *muddy/dark* comments.

Regards,

[astroman]

well, the old A16's clock circuitry is for sure the most impressive part of the content of the blue box.

It comfortably sits a bit aside in it's own dedicated space of the pcb, while the 48 5532 opamps, the respective 16 TDA-1305 D/A converters and their SAA-7367 A/D relatives sweat with the signal, tortured by 6 devilish stablizers that a sadistic engineer placed under their feet (below the main circuitboard)...

do you have any idea how I could determine the quality of the clock at the BNCs without a major investment in measure gear ?

cheers, Tom

[areptiledysfunction]

well, the old A16's clock circuitry is for sure the most impressive part of the content of the blue box.

It comfortably sits a bit aside in it's own dedicated space of the pcb, while the 48 5532 opamps, the respective 16 TDA-1305 D/A converters and their SAA-7367 A/D relatives sweat with the signal, tortured by 6 devilish stablizers that a sadistic engineer placed under their feet (below the main circuitboard)...

do you have any idea how I could determine the quality of the clock at the BNCs without a major investment in measure gear ?

cheers, Tom

I do not know. I was just on the phone with David Seymour at Mytek right before I read this post. I will be talking to him again tomorrow. I will ask him this question. Personally, I just recognize jitter in a D/A by a lack of imaging and harshness in the midrange that is impossible to EQ out of the mix. I discovered this the hard way years ago when mixing a project on some cheap converters. I could not get the nasal tonality out of a male vocal track no matter how hard I tried. I finally took my audio files to another studio and we opened the mix on a system which was using a Cranesong HEDD for the monitor bus. There was nothing wrong with the vocal track at all.

[astroman]

at least you didn't make the singer try even harder...

I've considered it a couple of times to reverse the (current) sync setup and slave the Pulsar to the A16 - I do have a syncplate, but not the proper one... and as you may guess ... I couldn't resist to try it out anyway... (CWA is a small company, so they won't allow themselves the luxury to design 2 completely different plates - was my basic logic - and on photos it looks like ttl logic anyway...)

well, since one of those (undocumented) attempts fried 2 lines of the cable up into smoke (the plug isn't marked), I became a little more cautious
those minutes to reboot the PC and check if the Pulsar is still alive were terrible, not sure if I can stand it a 2nd time
I may have had it even right before that 'event', but since the red indicators on the sample rate page aren't supposed to lit up with the sync plate (at least according to a post here), I assumed it didn't work.

cheers, Tom

[Purusha]

Hi there, I am new on this forum and I need some advice. I am thinking of buying the A16 ultra to replace my 1820M. I don't see any problem in 1820M quality really, but 8 ch. of DA is just not enough anymore. I was also thinking of adding the cheap ADA8000 for additional 8 DA but I am hesitating to do so. What do you think would be the best solution?

I guess the A16 Ultra has better sounding converters than 1820M?

Another thing I don't understand yet is if A16 ultra needs some PCI card in the computer to run or it can be connected directly by firewire as well?

Best regards, Purusha

[CarvinGuitarFreak]

Hi Purusha,
Im quite new to this forum also. Its a great place and people here are the best.

I just got a 1616m which has the same converters as the 1820m, which is the same conversters as my Lynx2 and the much touted digidesign HD (not the lesser 001 or 002). These converters are great. The U16a is (IMHO) excellent. You will need to use a creamware card via zlink to get the full 16 channels but can be used via your ADAT connection. You do know it is not a soundcard and you will need your 1820m to make it usable?

I havent used the ADA8000 but have heard good reports about it (price/peformance ratio). I suspect the jitters are much lower on the 1820m, but I could be wrong. Its should sound good for live and studio work. Obviously it depends on your application.

My collegue uses a Alesis AI3 in his project studio which has the same converters as the ADA and its sounds good but when A/B with the U16a, we both prefered the U16a as better quality. It doesnt have pres (same as U16a).

You should definetly try a creamware card (home, project etc) if you havent already, you certainly wont be disappointed.The synths are to die for and the effects better than anything on offer thats not dsp based. I wasnt to keen on the dsp effects on the 1616m because Ive been spoilt by creamware and UAD.The 1616m effects are useless/worthless for me, but thats just me.

I tried this the other day with my 1616m:
http://www.productionforums.com/viewtop ... 0f2433efef

its from marcuspocus who is also a member of this forum.

Hope this helps?
CFG

[kyunghwee]

Another thing I don't understand yet is if A16 ultra needs some PCI card in the computer to run or it can be connected directly by firewire as well?

A16 Ultra's Z-Link connectors look identical to firewire connectors but they are CreaWare proprietary connections and won't work with conventional firewire connections. Thus, you'll need a CreamWare PCI card equiped with Z-Link connectors. Or you can use optical ADAT connectors on A16 Ultra to interface with other equipments that have optical ADAT connectors.

I haven't seen any other AD/DA converters that manage 16-in/-out in 1-U rack space yet...and A16 Ultra's sound is quite transparent through my KRK V8's.