Disappointmet with Magma support

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:21 pm

This is what I have being replied, after have sent them a PCIscope file:

When you are having problem (such as the card stops) using your application there are so much that you can do to isolate the problem.

1. Try using a new Magma HIFI cable
2. Try using a new Magma Cardbus card
3. Try using a new Expansion Chassis
4. Use different laptop
5. Upgrade Creamware driver
6. Update or Tweak the computer BIOS
7. Reinstall Operating System

Try the above and see if there are any changes or improvements.

Thanks,
Magma Tech Support

MAybe they forgot:
Forgot the MAgma, and carry your desktop.

Post by **garyb** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:04 pm

on the other hand, at least they seem to expect it to work unless something's broken(try new magma cable, chassis, blahblahblah) or the os or bios is messed up.....

if it doesn't work and they can't see and touch your machine, it's hard for them to say much with any certainty.

they could try just a little bit harder to help you though...

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:26 am

Interesting that their first 3 options involve buying new (and certainly not cheap) hardware from them. Sounds like their sales reps are doubling up as tech support. Typical

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:43 am

The only thing that can really affect Magma performance is the quality of the PCMCIA controller on a laptop, and how well the motherboard busses data around.

In this respect, I really don't know how Magma could help you... their hardware 'just works' in my experience.

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:38 am

Check for irq sharing with your pcmcia slot?

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2006-08-08 03:58 ]

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:02 am

Well, since I have asked here before, I was replied that the issue was discussed before. So I went to the link, and read that the only ones that can help were Magma, so I wrote them.
Well, I´m still replying them..
They asumed that the was not working. I have just replied it depends the project I load.
Realize I have only the 3 dsp card, so by default, I cannot load big projects at all.
But have found that if I load the masterverb, the message appears more often.
What I really want to do, is learn about my system faults, so:
find what is the PCMCIA controller limit, if it´s the knock bottle, or if the knock is caused by any device inside the pc. If I´m not wrong, many devices use the PCI bus, isn´t that?
I hope there can me monitoring each device to find how bandwith is using each, and what is making a problem.
Sometimes, I can be playing with STS sampler, with 24 poliphony, and no reverb, just only STS+ mixer, and can be playing up to an hour. Then, suddenly, the message appears, and often, then appears many times.
So is logical to think that that time, something occurs different, and would be great to have tools to can monitor that, if they exist.
Hope Magma, or here, anyone can help me on this.
Valis, what IRQ have to change, and how?

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-08-08 10:14 ]

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:10 am

GRRR! this is stressant! Look here what I replied, and what they sent me:
My reply

maybe I have not explained correctly.
I´m not telling is a Magma problem, or a driver problem. I´n not telling
something is wrong on the device.
I asume that the PCMCIA bus has limit bandwith or even the PCMCIA
controllers can have different priority or performance on it´s work.
The magma is working ok when load little things on the pci card.
When load a project more big, may can be working 1 hour without problem, and
then, appears the message, and can appear then few times.
I´m asking for some information for me can find out where is the knock
bottle.
If I´m correct, many devices share the PCI bus, isn´t that? What I´m
asking you is for knowlegde, any way to can test, or monitor what devices
causes the pci bus limit.
I ´don´t know if there are tools for that, but I asume can be. Also find if
I´m overloading the PCMCIA controller bandwith, or the Magma bandwith, or is
a internal limit bandwith on the PCI bus.

What they sent me:

Laptop uses 32bit cardbus and controller. Therefore, it has its own limitation as opposed to using a Desktop. For example if you are using 64bit PCI card or a high end card installed in chassis connected to laptop, you will have a bandwidth issue because your system will use the slowest bus no matter hw fast your PCI card is. That is standard on all laptops.

Have a nice day.

and then:

Hello jose,

This is to inform you regarding the issue (Computer, Operating System & Application Issue), service number (351) you submitted on 08/03/2006 has been closed due the following:

1. Issue is resolved - completed

2. No further assistance is required

3. Lack of response

lack of response??

[ This Message was edited by: lagoausente on 2006-08-08 10:12 ]

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:05 am

they definitively have tested a few creamware cards, else they wouldn't have published the creamware products on the compatibility chart...

see here:
http://www.mobl.com/expansion/support/c ... html#audio

katano · Post by **katano** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:22 am

have you tried PCI Dawg/DoubleDawg?

http://www.mark-knutson.com/t3/

Set graphic card and maybe other pci devices to 64ms...

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:50 pm

On 2006-08-08 10:02, lagoausente wrote:
Valis, what IRQ have to change, and how?

To begin with merely identify whether or not your cardbus controller is sharing irq's with anything else. I can almost guarantee that it is as every laptop I've had experience with seems to stack everything on 2-3 irq's (I suspect due to using only 2-3 physical copper connections on the motherboard for all devices). Unfortunately switching to 'standard pc' from ACPI isn't an option with many modern laptops. You'll lose about 75% of the mobile features and possibly even the onboard devices. I can only get many of the drivers to install when the laptops are in ACPI mode. This goes for Dell, HP and Lenovo (or whoever makes Thinkpads now).

Simplified version: Right click on my computer, choose 'manage' and then navigate to the 'device manager' section on the left of the management console. Once there choose View>Resources by type in the upper menu, and expand the IRQ tree on the right. On my current laptop the cardbus is thankfully on its own irq, but the ethernet port, the usb controller and the internal radeon graphics are all sharing irq10 (I have to use doubledawg to set the AGP to pci latency 64 to avoid problems when using a usb midi controller under ableton Live).

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 1:54 pm

Yes, there are lot of devices that are sharing the IRQ 11. But have no access to change the IRQ. On the device resources, can´t uncheck the automatic configuration. Windows help, tells it can´t be changed on some devices, like those they are not plug and play.
Mine is a IBM T40. I have tried the PC standard, but the cardbus drivers, can´t be installed correctly, at first. Don´t know if there are avaible others.
But I´m still wishing to find, how to monitor each device. I mean, the same I can use a tool to scan the hd speed, It would be a tool to can scan how many bytes/second are crossing the cardbus.
And so find how I am overloading or not the cardbus. And then find if the problem is there, before, of after it.
I really can´t beleive, that those tools don´t exist. Why not? Why not windows couldn´t find how many bytes are the cardbus managing?
I know here are programmers, and computer genius. No one can give me any info on this?
There must be a place over internet where must be computer expert forums, I think.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:37 pm

On 2006-08-09 14:54, lagoausente wrote:
Yes, there are lot of devices that are sharing the IRQ 11. But have no access to change the IRQ.
...
Mine is a IBM T40. I have tried the PC standard, but the cardbus drivers, can´t be installed correctly, at first. ...

sorry that I haven't followed all of this, but with a shared irq AND a not properly installed driver you don't even need to think about the problem

...I mean, the same I can use a tool to scan the hd speed, ...

good point - you just ansered your own question

There is no such tool, as there is no such thing as 'a harddisk speed'.

The thing you probably refer to measures the maximum amount of data that can pass the controller - it's completely different from the datarate under true application conditions.
Make the test with a big folder, pre-calculate the time according to the transfer rate of the drive and then measure how long it really takes...

That's how I would test a drive - for office stuff some folders with several thousand small files, for audio some large files.

As you can see it depends on what you're after.
Same with the Magma - only a real world test can tell.

It is known that a Magma is prefect for synths, but not so good on big reverbs.
Asio channels and sample players fall somewhere in between.

but with that driver and sharing issue unsolved you don't need to bench a bus.
You either solve it - or get a new notebook that allows these settings and has proper drivers.
I remember someone once mentioned that some cardbus drivers are just unusable, but Legros (?) was highly successful with a Sony Vaio.
But you most likely know all this...

cheers, Tom

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:33 pm

About the only thing u can do under ACPI mode on a laptop to reduce irq conflicts is disable unused devices in the laptop BIOS or device manager.

sonolive · Post by **sonolive** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:43 pm

hi lagoausente,

i also work with a amagma with CW caed inside : 1 SCOPE + 1 PULSAR,

Since 2 years i was running it with a Packard bell simple laptop : 1024 Mo DDR + Athlon 2.1 :
I had some problems to install the drivers, cause of the pcmcia driver (ENE)but after updating and configuration, i managed to install it and it worked properly.

I use it a lot for live apps, as an INSERT RACK for FOH (Comp / gates / optimaster / 31B EQ / self made plugs for precise bands i work with (48db/oct band pass ...)on mono channels or Sub groups .

ususally, i use it as a 16 (32) IN/ 16 (32) OUT peripherals rack with one (or two) A16 (with analog mixers) or 24 (36or+) IN OUT with ADAT on digital mixers.

I use it only in 44 Khz, no way to use it in 48 Khz (clicks ...)
While i used only dynamics and few filters, every thing was ok, but the problem comes when i try to use reverbs or delay lines, the message (limitation ... pci pb ...) appears, even if the processor meter (was not full)

for example i could use one RMS160 or masterverb ... and no more, some times loading even one of these dev was to much ...

so i began to optimise the laptop profile and desactivated all services and hardware i didn't need for audio apps, Modem, card reader, lan, some usb, low display resolution ... the result was much better in term of stability, but still no way to load reverbs and delay lines !!!

few time ago, i bought a SONY VAIO !!! that use a TI pcmcia chipest as magma suggest ...
nothing to see, it's much² much² much² better,
more stable, i can load reverbs t(not so much but 3 or 4 instances, i don't have to optimise anything, i even can use WIFI connection (when they are avaible) while working live or recording .
last week i have recorded 24 tracks on the laptop HD during 4 hours (30 Go)
yesterday i have used it as an insert rack on a show, no pb att all,

I can conclude some things :
THE PCMCIA chipset is the most important thing to keep in mind (and magma tells it very clearly on they web site)
you MUST have a high end laptop,
PCMCIA bus has enough bandwith for recording multi tracks in 24/48 and someone told me that thes bandwith was much more interesting and stable than 1394 or USB2 (that is the worst)

another thing that is very important according to INNOVASON ingeeners (www.innovason.com - big digital mixers for Lkive) is the cable and the connections ! deporting a PCI bus is very difficult in term of connection ! and that is where pbs can appear with pcmcia card and slot !
you can even change the way you connect this cable (reverse it) it can solve some pb (also precised on magma site)

So my conclusion is :
using magma with CW is fantastic because you don't have to travel with a lot ok racks, display, and so on, but it cannot totally replace a standard well configured PC, it has limitations and you must keep yhis in mind, trying to optimise it for what you need !

other advantages it that with the same laptop, while you have finished sound checks or shows, you can go on browsing the web, posting on PZ, work at hotel ...

the inconviniences : you can not unplug the pcmcia while working, such as bss or some other units,

what i thing CW should build : a 2U rack with 25 or 30 DSP (like a noah) with 32 IN OUT ADAT for example and remoted with a 1394 interface for SFP (like noah) and PCMCIA for recording when needed !
i have allready ask yhem for such a hardware ! but they seem not to be interested in LIVE applications for the moment, i really hope they will !
chhers
olive

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:47 am

Well, first of all, I have not a driver problem with ACPI. Driver is ok here.
When changed to PC standard mode, there appeared the ! on the devices manager, and couldn´t reinstall it. Here I don´t know yet if there is any specific driver o something to do, to can install all drivers in pc standard mode.
I really don´t know how could consider my laptop. It´s a IBM T40. I think is not old, I think they are going on T43 now. And I thinked IBM was a good firm, maybe it´s not good for magma, really don´t know. I have bought it on Ebay at 450 euro, and seemed to me very afordable price for a 1.5 centrino IBM. I see no easy to change to a new Sony one, I suppose will be very expensive.
The T40 laptop bios, allows me to change some IRQ, but it has: INTa, INTb, INTc
I can change any int to a different IRQ, what seems to happen, is that when change the INTc what controls the cardbus, also change the Video card one, and the USB one, etc.
I have found also, that video card, can boos as PCI, or AGP, what does it mean? Would change something regarding to the IRQ or the cardbus?
The IBM carbus is a Texas instruments PCI-1520. Maybe could I find a driver any where to can install on PC standard?

lagoausente · Post by **lagoausente** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:01 pm

I have just installed correctly the cardbus driver on PC stadard mode. There are some drivers I still have to install, like IDE, ISA, ISA-PCI, etc, I´ll try tomorrow.
But I still don´t know what advandages have this mode. How can I change the IRQ on PC Standard mode?