Solid, stripped down VST host?

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:10 am

I haven't made the move yet, I'm still using the geriatric MC-500MkII w/ Alesis HD24. I realize it is time to get a VST host. A producer I work with has already purchased Nuendo 3.0 which I will have to learn this summer. But I am looking for something that is not so overbloated, just a simple VSTi host w/ sequencing. I wish that I could find something like Brainspawn with a simple 16 track sequencer. This would be my live rig also so stability is as usual a must. Scope cards are going to get their own box, as I will upgrade my Gigastudio 3 Orchestra to GVI, the VST version of Gigastudio 3. This will be great if everything works, in case it doesn't I can put everything back the way it was. The Scope synths sound so good that I seriously doubt I will ever use VSTi's except for sampling.
Does this set-up sound sensible?

Servercase CK480 4U ATX
Intel D975XBX version 3.04
Intel Conroe 2.66GHz
2 x 1GB OCZ PC2-8000 EE
Matrox P650 PCI-e 128
RME Hammerfall DSP 9632
OCZ ADJ-520 PSU ATX
3Ware 4 in 3 SATA RAID cage
WD360G O.S. + apps.
WD1500 x 2 for samples, and audio streams
WD740G for streaming of Gigapulse.

I want a good solid rig, not trying to overkill just stable. From what I've read the CPU is a serious dual core audio dream.The only missing peice is the rackmounted keyboard drawer w/ KVM switching abilities.
So my friends as usual I seek your advice in these matters. I would consider a MAC because of their interest in audio /Logic, but I like my own designs not Steve Jobs. So PC seems like the way to go again.

Thank You Again,

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat May 20, 2006 6:29 am

for Light VST hosts, you have a lot of options. It really depends on what your primary needs are, and any other functions you need or can live without:

Tracktion2 seems to have an interesting and cpu friendly approach to things, and has a bit of a following. I have a free copy over version 1 that was offered for a short time when Mackie bought it (to entice people to upgrade of course). I've enjoyed goofing off in it and its not hard to learn imo, but it didn't have the depth of arrangement & editing tools to get me to switch over from Logic. There is a demo available:
-> http://my.mackie.com/products/tracktion/demov2.asp

Ableton Live is an interesting and potentially useful tool. but the default timestretching can get in the way if you're tracking parts out yourself. The midi is more than adequate, but its performance can be occasionally glitchy and I have to say that as much as I personally like its stretching features and Live mode, its arrangement view is about the same as Tracktion when it comes to the level of control you find in the 'larger' DAW apps. This may be ok for your needs though as well. I'm personally of the opinion that Ableton Live has also surpassed Acid and unless you're a devoted Sonic Foundry fan Live would be my choice of the two. Luckily they have a demo as well:
-> http://www.ableton.com/index?main=downloads

FLStudio v6 (FruityLoops) has a lot of devoted fans among in the electronic music world and is quite capable even with its internal toolset. But handling of audio parts has only recently and automation has only recently been added and I personally think that work that relies heavily on this feels a bit cramped in the FLStudio interface as it stands now. In other words it's more than up to par to doing loop based work but falls short when you want to close mike your local orchestra or high school band for a nice classical session. Once again there is a demo:
-> http://www.tucows.com/get/209204_87241

Propellerheads Reason calls itself "a virtual studio rack with all the tools and instruments you need to turn your ideas into music." Many people seem to agree judging by its popularity. Cpu friendly enough to be quite portable, projects are easy to swap between users and there is a lot of material out there available as refills for the userbase. Sometimes criticized for the same things that make it portable and bang easy to use, its often rewired into Cubase or another rewire host to do the mixing since it has no plugin support. It also can't record audio, although there are 3rd party applications out now to do things like add realtime audio input to process a live instrument or voice right in Reason.

Project 5 (v2) is Cakewalk's answer to the 'virtual studio rack'. Rewire compatible, it also integrates its 'virtual instruments' right into Sonar when installed. Project5 is quite a capable application on its own, and in addition to its own instruments it fully supports external plugins and softsynths in the vst/vsti/dx/dxi formats. Not to be confused with Cakewalk Kinetic, which is cakewalk's own loop & pattern based app that uses Roland preset sounds and loops, and also integrates nicely into Sonar.

Synapse Audio's Orion Platinum & Orion Pro offer another alternative to the 'Virtual Studio' in your PC. Both versions support Vst & DirectX effects and softsynths and can create full compositions from scratch. Orion Platinum adds more effects and internal 'Generators', Multitrack audio recording, Rewire(v2) support, a master effects section and a built in sampler.

REAPER is a FREE cpu & ram friendly application which at first glance seems to loosely clone Acid. Its actually written by one of the fellows that brought Winamp to the world, and includes his rather interesting Jesusonic effects. It also offers support for Midi, vsti's, and full mixing of midi & audio. It is currently free and will switch to shareware on v 1.0 release:
-> http://www.cockos.com/reaper/download.php

KRISTAL Audio Engine is also FREE and is purported to be "a powerful multi-track recorder, audio sequencer and mixer - ideal for anyone wanting to get started with recording, mixing and mastering digital audio. It is designed as a modular system. The main application provides a mixing console, while the audio sequencer, live audio input and so on are loaded as separate Plug-Ins. KRISTAL Audio Engine is free for personal, educational and non-commercial use."
-> http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/index. ... n=download

Zynewave Podium has an extensive list of advanced features like "64-bit mixing, multiprocessor support, surround sound, integrated sound editor, preset librarian and spline curve automation of plugin, MIDI and mixer parameters. The number of supported devices, plugins, tracks, channels and mixer busses are practically unlimited. All this is presented in a stylish and customizable user interface." But the most interesting thing about Podium is the "hierarchic mixing engine that integrates audio recording, VST plugins and external MIDI and audio gear". The best way to understand what this means is to download the demo and check out a lesson or two:
-> http://www.zynewave.com/download.htm

Muzys also offers a slightly different paradigm for a virtual music studio, but is unfortunately no longer available and the development has ended, but you can find old Computer Music magazine cd's with it and its certainly functional.

Mutools Luna offers a VERY cut-down featureset and a very simple interface, which might be very inspiring of you just want to get a simple sequence going and focus on recording & mixing of audio & midi. The free version functions fine for demoing the software, but it only offers a single audio track in the mixer along with 4 vsti's.
-> http://www.mutools.com/downloads.html

Tunafish actually simplifies the sequencing environment so much you'll have to use your audio as samples and you'll need a separate app to even record audio. The midi implementation is good enough to do compositions or even perform live.

Integrated Music Software is another 'virtual music studio' that offers enough functionality to compose modern music, but with a very simple interface and set of functions that might be limiting or inspiring.

Magix Music Studio is based upon cut down and older versions of the Samplitude and Logic codebase. Samplitude forms the base of the 'Audio studio' portion, and Logic the 'Midi studio' side of things. The featureset on offer here is great for the price and would have competed with any high end app 8 years ago, but the lack of integration between the audio & midi side might be a bit frustrating for most people's needs these days. I put this here mostly because Magix has a way of getting copies of its software out there to the general public.

If you're not looking for a tracker we can probably skip over tools like Renoise, Psycle, Aero Studio, Aodix, and of course Buzz.

Minihosts:

Tobybear's MiniHost (donationware) is a" powerful and full-fledged ASIO host that loads a VST plugin (instrument or effect) and processes it in realtime. It offers many features that other hosts don't have."
-> http://www.tobybear.de/p_minihost.html

VSTHost is a VST-compatible host that started mainly as an aid in understanding and debugging VST plugins, it has evolved into a quite capable program by now which can be really helpful in a keyboard artist's Live setup. It has support for VST effects (aka "plugins"), VSTi's, MIDI i/o, .fxb presets, MME or ASIO drivers, and a Wave Player/Recorder.
-> http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm

-----

Then there are hybrid highly Modular Tools tools that can often work in a variety of roles both as a standalone app and a plugin:

There is a crowd of people who feel that using a tool like Ableton Live is the easy way out, and that you should build your own custom live performance rig in Max/MSP to truly customize your own musical instrument. Its certainly even possible to build mixers and sequencers and perform audio recording & playback in Max as well. The audio processing pretty much eliminates the need for vst's and it will handle midi with aplomb. The complexity however may mean that you spend as much time (if not more) building and customizing your environment as you do using it to compose & mix music.

Audiomulch won't do a lot for recording your local band, but it will make very interesting electronica collages out of the recorded material you do have already lying around. The quality of the audio generators on offer here is excellent and it can provide realtime access to sounds and techniques that once required a kyma or csound expertise.

EnergyXT, which started life as Massiva, is a modular host that has a full sequencer inside, including the handing of audio parts. The other functions on offer in the tool have often been compared to working in Logic's environment. Midi & audio processing is excellent and many ex-Logic users actually enjoy using this as a plugin in Cubase for that reason. Then there are people who have gone wholesale over to EnergyXT and use it as their host in standalone mode. To me the audio handling seems to be slightly limited compared to the larger apps, which it admittedly doesn't even pretend to be.

Bidule is one of my favorite tools for all kinds of things. It can be useful for testing plugins without having to open your 'main' DAW app, as a Vsti host to build a crazy modular concoction sequencing multiple vstis, mixing recorded and realtime audio, with multiple tempos going for different parts, or for esoteric things like realtime processing of audio via custom math modules (fft and such) and/or realtime midi processing & sequencing. It does have a plugin version but its very limited currently and only useful for loading Bidule programs you've already created.

Console is a newer entry into the scene which comes from Japan. Once again it offers a nice modular environment that you can load up into your main host and is functional enough to compose and mix entirely in, yet spartan enough to be very clear & easy to use.

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2006-05-28 08:57 ]

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 20, 2006 6:59 am

Dear Sir,
I couldn't have asked for a more thorough explanation on possible choices. I will let you know what I decide on. Thanks to you, I have my work cut out 4 me for a few days.

Strength And Honor,

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:52 pm

Don't you just love his list? I am trying to find out more about Bidule,i.e. some real life examples w/ Scope, or VSTi's. Since I'm delving into Modular III all weekend, and Flexor on Monday, this modular approach to sequencing seems right up my alley.

Thanks Again Mates,

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:15 pm

Thank You Sir,
I think we are also trying to get a new thread instead of the Brainrox one going. Those kind of threads are not the positive kind I am used to seeing. Fellow Pulsarians at battle? This is very sad, the first time I saw that kind of negativity on here. Is there a rock throwing forum somewhere else where they can go? Some people are very sensitive here, and I will do my best not to antagonise them. PlanetZ should have a bitch thread area for all those who wish to share their displaced aggressions. That could be entertaining and educational at the same time. But it definately doesn't fall under general discussion. There is nothing general about that. Reminds me of the AMD vrs. Intel forums of the '90's.

Thanks For The Mamories, They Fit In My Mouth Quite Well,....I loved the U.S.O. and Bob Hope shows, sorry.

_________________
Jimmy V.

[ This Message was edited by: scope4live on 2006-05-20 14:19 ]

Post by **hubird** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:38 pm

Great Job Valis, indeed.
You throw all that out just spontanious?
respect

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat May 20, 2006 8:09 pm

Yes I did. Was going to list 2-3 packages then figured what the heck I'm already started...

Post by **hubird** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:16 am

hehe

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Fri May 26, 2006 1:21 pm

cheers Valis, cool stuff

- for multitrack i use Tracktion 1.6 (i intend to upgrade to 2, maybe when i finish my fixed gear bike

), it handles standard audio/midi multitracking pretty well, and i love that lego blocks single page gui
- for testing reasons i've tried EnergyXT recently and i must say, quite impressive little app. i like modular approach in it as much as i loathed Logic's way, tho midi editing is very crude...
- Live - one has to try it, there are things it does like nothing else does, mostly performance oriented stuff tho...
- Fruity - tbh, when someone asks me about an app to get started with music from the scratch i point him to FL, but i cringe at thought i'd have to use it again, powerfull app with features accessed thru interface inspired by roland groovebox, and twisted like minds of it's creators, bleh
- i still use old Muzys quite a lot for certain midi functionality that nothing else touches (Fxpansion Guru is close, but it is meant just for drums), the new Luna is nothing to write home about

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Fri May 26, 2006 6:37 pm

Thanks For Your Replies,
Right now I'm re-familiarizing
myself with Mod III. It has me up for 14 hours today already, I'm fried. The DJ/Kyma man I'm in pre production with currently uses Akai MPC, and I will have my trusty MC-500MkII for back up. The host will be for studio only, until I can rely on stability or have a need for pre recorded audio. We sync up lights and FX with MIDI, I play music, he mixes loops of all kinds. He basically has a hardware set up that functions like Abelton's Live. I think that I will buy the host that works well with audio,i.e. I have programmed all the old hardware sequencers since 1984, and never really ever got too deep into MIDI. I sequenced section samples, changed presets on the slow ass Lexicon PCM-70/ PCM-41, and helped out with lighting cues, as most roadies were too busy looking at girls, and beers, I made it so they only had to be on cue with the 1000 watt Troopers. But I treated the hardware sequencer as a multitrack recorder w/o audio. It was my studio on the road for 19 years. My QX-1, and MC-500MkII, never crashed once!! So they too will be properly buried in my studio. It seems so weird that my stage rig is almost all digital, and my studio is almost all analog. In the '80's, my studio was the Yamaha DMP-7/QX-1 and 24 track Otari. Well I am my own road crew now, and it sounds so good w/ Scope/GS3 Orchestra, I don't think I want to be everyones sideman anymore.
BTW Michu you sure put a lot sound in your Mod III patches. I just got my Adern Flexors and couldn't believe how close to real analog our platform sounds. I just got done with my first patch, it was made to emulate all monophonic analog beasts. It soaks up the DSP's, but I got the Moog 100 series Emerson sounds, Pink Floyd's EP-3d tripping synth, Weather Report/Hancock's ARP2600S, and Isao Tomita's "Snowflakes Are Dancing" presets,and of course the SEM's.
I will be deleting/adding more efficient DSP conserving modules as I learn the different uses of each module. But it looks as though my SE-1x analogs are going to be buried as well. I never thought that Mod III/Flexor would sound that good, but it has many characteristics of it's analog ancestry.

To Us,And Those Like Us,

_________________
Jimmy V.

[ This Message was edited by: scope4live on 2006-05-27 05:59 ]

bronYaur · Post by **bronYaur** » Fri May 26, 2006 11:29 pm

I want make one PC-VSTi-host to run only VST plug,bat I think for this work one laptop that work in parallel with my scope desk top workstation,on lap top only VSTi,on desktop only scope evorioment

sorry for my english

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 am

bronYaur,
something like this?

edit - hehe, i've misread...

[ This Message was edited by: Michu on 2006-05-27 01:56 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:02 am

I found this one (savyhost) excellent on many occasion.

Very usefull!

Thanks Michu!

[ This Message was edited by: marcuspocus on 2006-05-27 03:02 ]

husker · Post by **husker** » Sat May 27, 2006 2:33 am

Yes, savyhost is great for wrapping up a specific VST. I use for Sonogram SG-1 as a 'permanent' display on a second monitor fed off a Wave Out device. Saves having it hanging around my main host (Live).

Post by **hubird** » Sat May 27, 2006 4:09 am

...with a documentation by hand of H.G. Fortune...

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:11 am

Talking about H.G Fortune :

http://www.hgf-synthesizer.de/

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 27, 2006 5:25 am

O.K. now we're talkin', I envision me making my own ASB's with those excellant Shuttle PC's. I would love to use the Asus socket 479 adapter w/ a Pentium M 780. This little app.SAVI would then turn any Shuttle PC into a standalone VSTi correct? If I could find a VSTi that I liked I could find a use for all of my extra Scope Project cards ( 2 ). According to the specs. of the Shuttle PC I could put 2 of them in a rackmounted SKB case and use them as I see fit. As I've mentioned before on the Z, the Pentium M has both the benefits of AMD/P4, and can run extremely quiet/efficient. Right now with Yonah/Conroe processors, and the AMD2's coming out, these single core masterpieces are extremely cheap, as is the barebones Shuttle PC. 2 of these could really help out a live gig, or studio project. Anyone here ever hear or use the Arturia Moog Modular? They claim to have programmed it w/o the aliasing that is so apparent in other VSTi's that I've heard.

Be Fruitful, And Multiply,

Michu · Post by **Michu** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:02 am

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm

in case you didn't check it out
bigger brother of SAVIhost
can load multiple vsts and chain them quite freely

edit: http://www.tobybear.de/p_minihost.html
another great slick host

[ This Message was edited by: Michu on 2006-05-27 11:04 ]

dawman · Post by **dawman** » Sat May 27, 2006 10:15 pm

Thank You Michu,
Just wondering though, where is Pyrlandia? Up in the firmament? I thought that I was well versed with geography. My ancestors were from Lower Saxony,a place called Vogtland. Vogts being my name. But I can't make the Michu/Pyrlandia connection.

We Have Nothing To Fear, But Scope Itself,

Jimmy Vogts

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sun May 28, 2006 12:41 am

Pyrlandia = Fire land?