Decay and release on the Minimax

afrosty · Post by **afrosty** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:29 am

Hey there.

I'm all new to this and seriously considering buying the Minimax.
I demo’d it at my local musicshop and it sounds and feels great.
One thing is keeping me from taking another loan; that’s the decay and release. I understand how the release can be linked to the decay or switch off, it seems weird but is authentic.
The problem I encountered was this:
I had the release link to decay, which was turned all the way up. (10 sec or what?) I struck a note on the keyboard and release it right away. The note hung and faded out in 10 seconds as predicted. I repeated the scenario, the note hung and started to slowly fade, but this time I tried to turn down the decay knob. No reaction! The note still needed 10 seconds to fade out.
It seems like certain parameters can’t be changed in real time. Like the minimax needs a new note-on for the change to take effect…
Is this a bug and has it been fixed? Or does the original minimoog behave like this?!?

The shop never updated the OS, so I hope Creamware fixed this...

If this topic has been addressed before I apologize. I tried the search, but without luck.

Thanks,
Andreas

(Does this make any sense at all?)

((And also excuse my poor English.))

[ This Message was edited by: afrosty on 2006-03-26 09:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: afrosty on 2006-03-26 09:31 ]

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:55 pm

This is a known issue. Unfortunately, changes on on the envelope don't work "live" ... you have to re-trigger the note to hear the effect...

afrosty · Post by **afrosty** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:51 pm

Okay?!?

How does this work for you all?
Does the original minimoog behave this way?
Can anyone find an advantage in this, 'curse to me it sounds like a mayor bug..?
Please proof me wrong.. Otherwise I really like the machine... :'(

[ This Message was edited by: afrosty on 2006-03-27 13:52 ]

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:48 pm

i can't help but wonder in what situation would you be constantly tweaking the decay time while playing the instrument...

Is this a part of some particular technique you have developed?

R

afrosty · Post by **afrosty** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:33 pm

Good point though the only option to mute a slow pad would be turning the volume knob.
The "technique"

I've developed is that I would like to increase the sustain level while holding a chord. (using the volume knob for this is gonna be messy...)

I read a user-review that called this behavior a bug that was to be fixed. Can anyone comfirm this?

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:26 am

maybe you can do something similar with aftertouch?

afrosty · Post by **afrosty** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:18 am

That's a great idea! Never thought of that.
Still though, I can't help but wonder if I'm the only synth-player who see realtime editing of the envelopes as a very basic feature...
Could someone tell me if I'm right or wrong?

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:32 pm

Of course you're right. But this bug is very old and not only with Minimax.

So, I don't think that there is much hope that this is gonna be fixed

[ This Message was edited by: kybernaut_01 on 2006-03-28 12:32 ]

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:14 am

On 2006-03-28 06:18, afrosty wrote:
That's a great idea! Never thought of that.
Still though, I can't help but wonder if I'm the only synth-player who see realtime editing of the envelopes as a very basic feature...
Could someone tell me if I'm right or wrong?

To increase the sustain volume while holding down a note is something I can see being useful, and as pointed out above this would be as simple as assigning aftertouch (or the mod wheel)to volume. I can think of no reason why you should need to be able to adjust either attack or decay once the note is triggered and being held down. If you adjust attack it will not come into play until the next note is triggered anyway. I still don't see a real need to adjust the decay time after the note is triggered either, but that could just be me. The sustain parameter, however, should be adjustable while holding the note down, as this is how you set it to sustain at the desired volume.

Is it a bug or an oversite? Is it simply not possible in the digital world?

R

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:09 am

it's simply a matter of programming strategy, so one might call it a design flaw, but it doesn't qualify as a 'bug'.
The latter implies that it's an unexpected event or failure, but the way the envelope is handled here (between keypresses) is perfectly according to the program.
It's the more resource effective way and probably was choosen because the other method (having a feedback loop to the control value) is only relevant in a rather small number of situations.

The point is not to realtime-modify the longer values (say what happens between second #1 to #10, but how to deal with the first 20ms or so.
If you decide for a realtime control, you have to do it for the complete range and that can be pretty demanding (up to ridiculuos levels) if your microcontroller requires polling the values from the control.

From what I've read I guess that CWA followed the 'classical' way like it's implemented in many (digitally controlled) synths.

cheers, tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:05 pm

Alright, a design flaw then

At least it doesnt match with the whole "modeled down to the last potentiometer" approach that creamware claims to have.

Is it simply not possible in the digital world?

no, no.. it certainly is. I noknow for sure, that Nord and access did it in their VA instruments.

Anyway... let's use what we have and don't waste our time with complaining...

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:51 pm

As long as I can sweep the filter and resonance while I hold down a key, I'm OK.

R

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:50 am

On most of the original classic analogue synths ALL (yes that is ALL) envelope parameters are editable in real time. That is to say that while playing them & tweaking the envelope parameters, you should indeed be hearing the effects of your changes to any parameter in realtime. Welcome to the virtual synth revolution.

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:48 am

Hmm, I wonder if Arturia did the decay/release properly? I should check it out...

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:17 pm

Interesting question. I'm not sure, but I can find out. Don't really want to come back the bearer of bad news though, so I might keep it to myself

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:28 am

On 2006-03-27 21:33, afrosty wrote:
...The "technique" I've developed is that I would like to increase the sustain level while holding a chord. (using the volume knob for this is gonna be messy...)

so what ?
you want it 100% authentic and play chords on it ? ouch...

I second that VA synths include little explosives for a most realistic emulation of the 'shortcircuit' event

as nprime wrote above the only options when the key is held down are to modify the loudness level or to finish a long decay earlier (which makes sense).
Imho a volume pedal would do the job.

To decide about the length of the decay while the key is pressed and consider THIS special note's decay crucial in creative sense is more than exotic imho.

cheers, Tom

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:31 am

A volume pedal won't give you FULL realtime control of ENV>FILT.

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:17 am

I don't see how this is related to VA synths. You can tweak the Virus's enveloppes fine real-time, and they react properly. I'm pretty sure the Nord is the same. Although this isn't a show-stopper, it's definitely a bug and should definitely be fixed.

afrosty · Post by **afrosty** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:43 am

Hey Tom.

First,
I think we'll both agree that VAs are never gonna be 100% authentic, and as stated above "This is not a showstopper.", but still this is such a strange designflaw/bug...

Second,
How would you use a volume pedal to finish long release earlier, without silencing further playing?
This is not to argue, I really wanna know...

Thanks
-Andreas

[ This Message was edited by: afrosty on 2006-04-03 04:50 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:33 am

On 2006-04-03 04:43, afrosty wrote:
...How would you use a volume pedal to finish long release earlier, without silencing further playing?

I really didn't think too deep about it - it just entered my mind to silence the thing and dial the new evelope value while pushing the pedal.
You're absolutely right that it's rather demanding to release the pedal properly with the next envelope trigger...

On the other hand it's really great that you brought the point to attention.
Now everyone from Craig Anderton to (planetZ member) Zezappa knows he's been fooled the last 7 years or more

You won't find one single SFP synth that handles the volume envelope the way you expect it.

It's not 'a strange decision...' regarding Minimax, it's obviously built right into the toolkit.
Probably due to decisions I mentioned above, but that's just my reasoning.
Of course it's technically possible, as Symbiote wrote, the Minimonsta for example does it the way you prefer.

So it has been around all times and not even one of true 'experts' took notice.
Because it's completely irrelevant to a(ny) performance - even though you may have developed a special playing technique (which I fully respect).
You might have (most likely) developed another one (not necessarily related to envelopes), if the box reacted differently.
Imho a musician makes use of whatever peculiarity an instrument has, no matter if it's considered a good or bad feature.

I like the noisy DX7 in contrast to Scope's clean sounds (for example).
The 'envelope flaw' allows you to dial a new setup without affecting the current values - so it's not all negative

The 'but it's not authentic...' is a pure greed argument (imho) 'it's a true Mini for 25% of the price'

I'm suffering myself a little bit from it, as the lack of 'true' duophone support kept me from buying the Prodyssey (and probably it's ASB version, too).
As I schoolboy I could never afford the ARP shown in the local music store - now it would be so easy, if... yes, if it were truely...
I admit this is pure snobism...

and yes - you deserve another 'thank you' to drag me into verifying my suspect.
Aside from Profit it made me activate the Solaris again and Wavelength's Uberplastic - OMG what treasures of sound are on my harddisk

cheers, Tom