Minimax: too slow Attack/Rise time?

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:37 am

Why is it, that the Minimax doesn't produce these typical clicks at closed filters and attack times set to 0 ??

Even the review in German KEYBORADS magazine revealed that, as you can hear in this sound example:

http://download.keyboards.de/2003/03/cr ... imax_1.mp3

(left channel: minimoog, right channel: scope mimimax)

While I think that Creamware's engineers did an overall great job, I wonder why this "feature" of the original has not been captured in the emulation.

Is there a (technical) reason for this?

thanks,

kybernaut_01

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:02 pm

Those two sounds don't remotely sound like each other. I thought CW emulated the MiniMoog exactly down to the exact position of the knobs? Are the different MiniMoog units from one to the next that different from each other?

Music Manic · Post by **Music Manic** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:35 pm

Left channel sounds like it's got some subbass.

Lima · Post by **Lima** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:19 pm

I think that 2 units of the same analog device (read 2 real minimoog for example) are always a bit different each other.

I remember to have heard 2 identical SID (the synthesizer on the CommodoreC64) playing the same tune with 2 very different results!
Ok that was a cheap, mass production synthesizer and not a professional instrument, but the difference was big. In a pro synth the difference could be smaller, but still present.

Another aspect that afflicts the analog device is that they are sensible to the temperature, the humidity, the age...

So in my opinion it's quite impossible/unuseful try to judce the quality of an emulation simply coping the position of the knobs.

Why not try to emulate the temperature side effects picking up the value of temperature from the CPU sensor?

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:05 am

On 2005-08-01 00:19, Lima wrote:

Why not try to emulate the temperature side effects picking up the value of temperature from the CPU sensor?

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:42 am

My point is that the sound on the left channnel simply isn't possible to setup on a Minimax.

I don't care too much about 1:1 knob positions...

cheers,

kybernaut_01

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:05 am

Um, the C64 synthesizer was digital. What are you talking about?

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:18 am

Shayne - the SID chip has an analog filter.

Kybernaut - I've not played with a real Minimoog, but I get a kind of clicky sound with my Juno106 with low attack/release. This is definitely *not* a nice click, and I wish it didn't do it to be honest.

Apart from anything, there are things in the analog world, such as the weird little effects of electrons whizzing about at high speed in the primitive analog circuits, which are hard to get in digital. Some would say it's even not that important - the crucial thing is to have a musically viable instrument. My Scope Prodyssey doesn't have the duophonic mode, but I still love it and think it sounds amazing. Having said this, there's times when only my SE-1 will do

steffensen · Post by **steffensen** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:56 am

kybernaut_01,
i know exactly what u are tlaking about here. i havent tried the Minimax myself, but i planned on getting it sooner or later. i used the Moog Modular V few years back, just because of this particular reason! that "click" in front of the low cut bass, is a typical Moog thing, wich is just soo lovely, and perhaps a bit overused during the 80s? dunno, still luv it.

dissapoints me that Minimax dont have this option tho.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:02 am

On 2005-08-01 08:18, darkrezin wrote:
This is definitely *not* a nice click, and I wish it didn't do it to be honest.

The moog click is a nice one

In any case, you're not forced to use that feature... just rise the (amp) attack time by a few milliseconds, and the click will be gone...

BTW. how does your SE-1 behave in this regard?

Post by **hubird** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:02 am

yes, those clicks seem to be rather wanted, and tend to be the proove of the cake

My Virus-A produces them, in some critical circomstances I wish I could get rid of them, as they're not always 'musical'.
Tho the analog purists might think different

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:47 pm

Haven't tried myself, but have you tried disabling osc retrigger to get some clicks on the attack?

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:43 am

Are Klaus Piehl and Matthias Klag still working for Creamware? Maybe they could comment on this themselves...

thanks,

kybernaut_01

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:21 am

I vaguely remember an article about the Minimoog mentioning those 'clicks', but unfortunately not the details... but Atom is closest with his guess imho. It has something to do with the oscillators 'running free' or 'retriggered'.

Imho it's not about the click a filter produces when it can't deal with too short envelope times - that kind IS totally unpleasant (as Hubird mentions), not matter which brand...

cheers, Tom

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:59 am

On 2005-08-02 03:43, kybernaut_01 wrote:
Are Klaus Piehl and Matthias Klag still working for Creamware? Maybe they could comment on this themselves...

No.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:14 am

On 2005-08-02 08:21, astroman wrote:
I vaguely remember an article about the Minimoog mentioning those 'clicks', but unfortunately not the details... but Atom is closest with his guess imho. It has something to do with the oscillators 'running free' or 'retriggered'.

Imho it's not about the click a filter produces when it can't deal with too short envelope times - that kind IS totally unpleasant (as Hubird mentions), not matter which brand...

cheers, Tom

Aa far as I know, it is both. The free running oscillators are in a "random" phase correllation to each other. If the amp envelope opens quick enough on Note-On, you will hear a click every time one (or more) oscillators start on a "mountain". This click varies with every note played due to the ever changing start phase of the oscillators.

Most synthesizers have too a long attack time to allow these clicks pass through to the output... Waldorf is one of the companies that always cared for fast attack times in their synths...

On 2005-08-01 14:47, at0m wrote:
Haven't tried myself, but have you tried disabling osc retrigger to get some clicks on the attack?

The retrig parameter does't affect this because it is for the envelopes, not the oscillators (which are always free running).

On 2005-08-02 09:59, Shayne White wrote:
On 2005-08-02 03:43, kybernaut_01 wrote:
Are Klaus Piehl and Matthias Klag still working for Creamware? Maybe they could comment on this themselves...
No.

That's truely a pity.

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:23 am

On 2005-08-02 11:14, kybernaut_01 wrote:
On 2005-08-02 08:21, astroman wrote:
I vaguely remember an article about the Minimoog mentioning those 'clicks', but unfortunately not the details... but Atom is closest with his guess imho. It has something to do with the oscillators 'running free' or 'retriggered'.

Imho it's not about the click a filter produces when it can't deal with too short envelope times - that kind IS totally unpleasant (as Hubird mentions), not matter which brand...

cheers, Tom
Aa far as I know, it is both. The free running oscillators are in a "random" phase correllation to each other. If the amp envelope opens quick enough on Note-On, you will hear a click every time one (or more) oscillators start on a "mountain". This click varies with every note played due to the ever changing start phase of the oscillators.

Ok, I don't understand synthesizers, so I really have somewhere in between no and very little clue about what you are talking about, but this idea hits me. It sounds like an analog fault, which digital couldn't care less about so maybe the choice of converters (not least the analog part) would have something to say? As I said: I do not know what I am talking about.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:49 am

On 2005-08-02 11:23, Immanuel wrote:
It sounds like an analog fault, which digital couldn't care less about so maybe the choice of converters (not least the analog part) would have something to say?

Not really. Basically it is an analog particularity, but can be emulated in digital, too (see Waldorf and Yamaha's VA synth as a positive example).

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:26 pm

On 2005-08-01 09:02, kybernaut_01 wrote:
On 2005-08-01 08:18, darkrezin wrote:
This is definitely *not* a nice click, and I wish it didn't do it to be honest.
The moog click is a nice one In any case, you're not forced to use that feature... just rise the (amp) attack time by a few milliseconds, and the click will be gone...

BTW. how does your SE-1 behave in this regard?

In fact I just checked the Juno (I rarely record it, only really use it for jamming) and the clicks seem to be a fault in the electronics.. it's not affected by A/R times. Bah... I guess these things can happen with older stuff.

Re: SE-1.. I forgot to check.. will try and remember next time I'm in the studio.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:43 am

Just read the review of the Minimax ASB in KEYBOARDS magazine... They mention that the start phase of certain sounds are somehow static compared to a real Mini, which in fact comes down to what we are talking about in this thread!

Hello Creamware: Please address this issue in the form of an update for all(!) Minimax users on all platforms. Thanks you very much.