WAVES accelerators

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:49 pm

I don't know what Topic to put this under, so for now I'll start here. (If it needs to be moved, no problem.)

I just became aware of the Waves hardware accelerators:

http://www.waves.com/content.asp?id=1622

This is an expensive solution, but the general reason I wanted to put this up here is - it's something that people have been discussing for some time, the fact that as computers will get more powerful, there will be less and less need for hardware solutions such as the Creamware DSP boards...and yet, here you have a very sucessful company producing something that, to my mind, is very similar.

Is this something like what CWA should be looking to produce for Pulsar/Scope products?

Consider the price Waves is charging ($1600 and $2400). Not that far off from a Scope system, and only running one company's plugins! But, oh, that would be "too expensive" for the majority of the Creamware audience...I can hear the moaning and complaining already. It IS a problem of hobbyist versus professional perception, as Spirit pointed out re: VST plugs and Creamware plugs.

Of course, WAVES have established a huge reputation in the ProTools world, and so I guess can justify this. but why didn't/couldn't CWA have this possibilty? What can the company do to change this?

Perhaps, in a way, you can say the ASB producst are something similar - dedicated hardware to run specific plugins.

I suspect these boxes use Motorola DSPs....I'm awaiting something similar to run my Scope devices!

/rant

Thanks for 'listening',
John Bowen

[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2005-06-16 18:03 ]

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:02 pm

just add another $$$$ and u even get plugins to run on it!

Wonder how much a comparable rack server would set u back...

Man-Machine · Post by **Man-Machine** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 10:06 pm

So does this work like a DSP booster card for Waves plugins for Cubase or ProTools? I think this kind of integration would be a great idea for Creamware and would open a whole new market. The hardest thing to convince people I talk to jump into Scope is the dual environment. On the other hand, I never heard one bad thing about Scope synthesizers and fx. There's a lot of prospect buyers that just want to just use the synths and fx but not be tied up to the whole Scope software environment. I'm not saying that Creamware should drop the current environment workflow but just add more functionality like this for their devices as either a dedicated card or a box like this. I know a lot of people that would jump in a blink of on eye for an integration like this. I think Creamware already see this tendency in the market judging from their new synth boxes. A lot of people here hate an idea like this but I'm just expression my own opinion and of many others I know. I really think that current and prospect customer would all benefit this way.

_________________
L8ter Oscill8ters!

[ This Message was edited by: Man-Machine on 2005-06-16 23:18 ]

ChrisWerner · Post by **ChrisWerner** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:34 am

I got this thoughts in the past, too.
My wildest dream is a collaboration between Native Instruments, Creamware and Adern.

This would be the biggest modular system this times. Creamware could develop a new dsp card or external box to hold this modular, only.

I am sure there will be a good market for this in the electronic music scene.

There will be always a difference between pro ,semi pro and not pro products, mirrored in the price of the products.
Think of Mr. Zimmers new sample library and workstaion

Personaly, I don´t know if I would spend money in a scope professional, better two, or to spend it into a multiprocessor mainboard with the fastest CPUs and buy some wicked VSTs.
But I would buy a huge digital modular system box, at once.

VSTis don´t sound as good as CWA synths for sure, they need a bit afterwork, though.

Well, I am sure CWA has plans for the future and we have to wait. But we can suggest good ideas with a bunch of hope, like John did and do.

_________________
Music starts where any language ends

[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2005-06-17 01:35 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:17 am

On 2005-06-17 01:34, ChrisWerner wrote:
...Think of Mr. Zimmers new sample library and workstaion
...

we probably all do from time to time, as he (Wizoo) hired (almost?) the complete developement staff of former creamware...

the Wave boxes ? pretty simple:
you cannot crack 'n copy hardware

they look valuable

you can show them

cheers, Tom

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:39 pm

sharc · Post by **sharc** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:40 am

On 2005-06-17 01:34, ChrisWerner wrote:
My wildest dream is a collaboration between Native Instruments, Creamware and Adern.

This would be the biggest modular system this times. Creamware could develop a new dsp card or external box to hold this modular, only.

I am sure there will be a good market for this in the electronic music scene.

I agree - a hardware modular would seem to be one of Creamwares best options at the moment. Although I'm not sure about the need to get NI involved. The modules currently available from CW, Adern, Space F and let's not forget Zarg (eh John?) would be more than enough firepower to take on the likes of Clavia.

On the hardware front, I think something more along the lines of Clavia's G2 engine would be the way forward. Lets face it It's not really possible (economical) to create a hands on interface for a virtual modular. Although, I would be tempted nevertheless to stick a few assignable knobs on there similar to the Noah or (dare I say it?) Micro Modular.

There's lots of options on the hardware front. I for one am glad to hear that John's interested in producing hardware synths for CW platform.

My hope is that the next OS for the next generation of Scope cards can somehow integrate the ASB boxes (as well as the Noah) so that plugins can be more freely developed for all platforms and existing CW users have more incentive to buy into the ASB hardware.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:12 am

Why not get Moog involved >;-)
Joking >;-)

Maybe the new line could include something called " A32 Scope Modular ". Definately one
for the dreamers amongst us. Or is it ??

2u rack

32 x 24bit balanced I/O's
(stereo in & out on front panel)

32 x Adat I/O's (8 I/O's on Fron panel)

3 x Z-link ( 1 on front panel )

2 x MIDI in, 2 x MIDI out. ( front & rear )

2 x USB 2 ( 1 front & 1 back )

PCMCIA cardbus option ?? Maybe no need

Networkable like the waves boxes? Yes please.

Made to somehow match the A16 Ultra (visually) as it could obviously have a couple of A16U's added for a total of 64 balanced analogue I/O's. This may well be a 'studio in a box' & with new DSP's (and enough of them in there for development puposes) could be running 3 blooming Modular's AND THE REST !!

Like i said, one for the dreamers amongst
us...& definately not involving N.I.

...more like A.I.

/rant
(What do u think, John ?)

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:26 pm

i still like the cards over a stinkin' box...

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:04 am

On 2005-06-18 19:26, garyb wrote:
i still like the cards over a stinkin' box...

...And I don't

. pci bus is dying. It's already choking and unusable, as we can see in the newest generation of mobo's.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:31 am

wrong conclusion - It's made that way to trigger hardware sales

cheers, Tom

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:21 am

Astro is right - PCI is fine. The thing that's made things bad recently is that speeds are clocked higher without system bus stability being properly addressed. There's also absolutely no reason why multiple PCI buses should not be adopted more widely.

Also, look at Nforce3 motherboards - proof that you can have a stable PCI bus in spite of blazing speed.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:24 am

Oh and another thing... you will *always* be using PCI, at least for now and the near future.

The only use for PCI-Express right now is for graphics cards. Firewire, USB2, LAN etc all go thru the PCI bus. So I'm not sure what you propose to use in order to connect an external box.

sharc · Post by **sharc** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:19 am

Firewire, USB2, LAN etc all go thru the PCI bus. So I'm not sure what you propose to use in order to connect an external box.

...Maybe so. But I'm sure there are plenty of laptop users out there who would much prefer an external scope box to the magma solution. Likewise users who have rackmonuted there scope pc system would probably prefer dedicated creamware hardware in a rack.

Another thing I was wondering about external hardware is: Would you still have the same sort of expansion limitations? Yes, I suppose a system like this would be 'communicating' with the computer through the pci bus if it was using firewire/usb2/lan, but more to the point, the cards in a system like this wouldn't need to communicate with each other over the PCI bus and hence the old '3 card limitation' should no longer be an issue. Or am I wrong? I think the main issue is stability. If Creamware could get this one right it would do a lot to boost their reputation as one of the main reasons the platform has suffered has been the diversity in hardware used to run the cards. This has resulted in a lot of cases where the stability/reliability of the creamware platform has been called into question when in actual fact it is the users pc/mac setup which is at fault. I recently did a search for Creamware on the 'Sound on Sound' website and it came up with something interesting on this front.
 
<a href="http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan04/a ... nteresting SoundonSound article</a>
 
(bottom half of the page)

A complete hardware solution would mean that windoze & OS-X would no longer be needed other than for 'remote' editing.

...And no, I don't think it would have to be a PC in a box solution. I don't see an 'intel inside' badge on those waves units.

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:44 am

John wrote :-
"Is this something like what CWA should be looking to produce for Pulsar/Scope products? "
 
 No offence guys, but i think you're missing John's point & going off topic a little. (well some of you anyway)
 John was sparking off a thread for the dreamers willing & able to discuss 'product design'. He specifically pointed us in the direction of another manufacturer.. ala .. Waves (not that he's suggesting going buying them, far from it). I guess this was done as a suggestion (and a reasonably future proof one) directed at CWA.>>>
 "I suspect these boxes use Motorola DSPs....I'm awaiting something similar to run my Scope devices!"
 
 Various companies, as you all know, have gone bust over hardware 'rack-mount box' solutions, but that doesn't mean it's not a potential direction for the future of our hardware, especially when done to the Max. Without dream-like ideas of potential hardware, do you think we'd all be sitting with the top notch studio gear many of us posess today ?? I don't think so. It doesn't come from nowhere & although some of you guys would defend your current system to the hilt like myself, you're still missing the point (especially the point John Bowen of Zarg Music was trying to make when he started this post).
 
I think John was talking theory, future prediction, possibilities etc & it has nothing at all ( well bar romote editing, as 'Shark' suggested ) to do with the PCI bus that you're rattling on about.
 
We're talking next generation here, or is that a topic that nobody wishes to discuss.??
 
Things move on. You don't necessarilly have to sell old to buy new, especially if there is complete & I MEAN COMPLETE system integration.

Oh, & i missed out the standalone 'intel inside' version possibilities with DVI outs etc, as Sharc has pointed out.

[ This Message was edited by: notbobmoog on 2005-06-19 09:48 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:45 am

On 2005-06-19 08:19, sharc wrote:
... the cards in a system like this wouldn't need to communicate with each other over the PCI bus and hence the old '3 card limitation' should no longer be an issue. Or am I wrong? ...

...And no, I don't think it would have to be a PC in a box solution. I don't see an 'intel inside' badge on those waves units.

yes, you're wrong - the cards communicate with each other via the S/TDM bus with that custom cable.
Only one card (so-called master) communicates with the GUI, control siftware and mainboard memory over the PCI bus.

To be precise: this would be no performance problem at all, regarding any reasonable recording and sample application.

What IS a problem is the (inevitable) use of temporary (mainboard) memory for stuff like reverb and delay, because it travels the PCI-bus 'up and down again' with extremely tight timing schedules.

Memory designs like the ones on current video cards were simply impossible when Scope was designed.
A proper layout would have put a Pulsar One beyond $5k resale, so go figure... if someone had told you in 1997 that a 1 MBit internet connection costs less than 30 bucks monthly (allowing 24h online each day), you'd called him mad at best.

There is a heavy inconvenience (as said above), but it's not due to design flaws of the PCI bus - and it's definetely restricted to reverbs (currently).

well, I haven't opened a Wave box yet, but that stuff usually contains a downstripped Linux version in some flash mem.
We'd see the same for SFP too, if there was a Linux port. Some people are working on this, but since it involves CWA's core know how, it's not that simple.
So finally it IS a regular PC box, like a ton of home entertainment stuff, my cable receiver, etc

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-06-19 09:49 ]

wayne · Post by **wayne** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:58 am

- nice post, Tom - somehow it made me feel good after getting home from a pub gig

sharc · Post by **sharc** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:00 am

So finally it IS a regular PC box, like a ton of home entertainment stuff, my cable receiver, etc

OK, I get your point. But what sort of PC standard are we talking here. By the same note, I could call my Noah a PC. My point being that currently I have a Noah EX and a Scope system with roughly the same number of DSP's. Now I think you can probably guess which system runs more stable. I think a lot of CW users share my sentiment that their Scope system struggles to reach it's true potential due to PC hardware limitations and conflicts. Not to menmtion the OS....

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:20 am

Firstly, i wasn't talking about puting PCI cards & an STDM bus in the unit (although that would be cool too, on some kinda level). PCI cards & the STDM bus would be a separate software/OS issue, i believe.
 Astroman.. I think you're also missing the point. The STDM bus will be no longer be an issue in external units... Do the ASB boxes have STDM restrictions?? NO ! They are standalone, like the NOAH !!
 We're talking future, not what we're working with at the moment...am i wrong ??
 Thanks to John for getting some of us thinkers thinking !

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:36 am

On 2005-06-19 10:00, sharc wrote:
...But what sort of PC standard are we talking here. By the same note, I could call my Noah a PC. ...

I'm afraid not

Your NOAH has a USB based communication interface which feeds a graphical representation on a remote computer's screen.

It's not an independant networked box, as the Wave things obviously are (and a Linux based SFP would be).

But you're absolutely right about the quality of BIOS and (so-called) OSes.

It's strange that so many users know about these flaws, yet constantly restrict the 'problems' to the Scope card.
There's also a sequencer app involved in most setups, which is a multi-million-lines-of-code-monster on it's own. ALL such apps are buggy as hell - it's a natural matter of fact. Even with enough staff you wouldn't have enough time to debug that sh*t...

I personally don't use a sequencer and I have (just) one reliable bug in SFP - if it runs idle for an hour or so it will crash when I load a certain (kind of) synth.

cheers, Tom

ps: tnx Wayne, here the sun is about to settle (after giving me nice (slight) burn the afternoon in the garden) and supper's ready...