A couple good questions! Any engineers out there?

raztalove · Post by **raztalove** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 12:28 pm

Well, here is my first question. What is the advantage of stereo drum samples over mono drum samples. For instance, battery comes with stereo drum samples. What sonic benefits does this yield if the drums are just going to be panned around the stereo image anyway. I apologize for my ignorance, but ive always been used to dealing with mono drum samples.

Next question has to do with reverb. Technically, how bad is it to add reverb to a wave that already has reverb on it. We've all done it. I just know that there must be a whole load of technical issues doing that. Can anyone elaborate?

Thanks fellas. I'd love to hear your input.

RL

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:00 pm

I'm no engineer but for your first question:

The main reason for recording stereo (IMHO) is for a sense of space. Many people prefer the signal from a pair of overhead mics as opposed to a close-mic'd mono version.

I don't have an answer to your second question, other than 'if it sounds right, it is right'.

It seems that maybe you're confusing classic recording techniques (i.e. in the days before samplers) with sampling techniques. I don't think you can apply the same rules to both, because they are fundamentally different ways of creating music: linear recording is borne from certain technological limitations, whereas with sampling, there really are no rules.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:51 pm

the SPL Transient Designer can significantly reduce the room part (or reverb tail) from samples without messing them up completely.
Dark already answered the questions

cheers, Tom

raztalove · Post by **raztalove** » Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:46 pm

thanks guys... great input. Anyone else?

RL

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:11 am

On 2005-06-12 13:28, raztalove wrote:
Well, here is my first question. What is the advantage of stereo drum samples over mono drum samples. For instance, battery comes with stereo drum samples. What sonic benefits does this yield if the drums are just going to be panned around the stereo image anyway. I apologize for my ignorance, but ive always been used to dealing with mono drum samples.

Next question has to do with reverb. Technically, how bad is it to add reverb to a wave that already has reverb on it. We've all done it. I just know that there must be a whole load of technical issues doing that. Can anyone elaborate?

Thanks fellas. I'd love to hear your input.

RL

What are we talking about? A loop or a single hit? Loops are generally small sections of music that are meant to be repeated over and over. There are a ton of those drum sample CD's out there that contain short sections of sampled drum beats in different styles and tempos. These are meant to be connected together to form the rhythm track for a song. It makes sense that the loop would be recorded in stereo. A single drum hit (like a snare drum or crash or hi hat or tom or whatever) derives no benefit by being recorded in stereo although I'm sure there are creative instances where that might be necessary. If people are recording snares and toms and kicks in stereo, it's because they are going after some form of hyped up sound - not necessarily because they are trying to get a realistic drum sound.

Regarding the reverb question, it seems like a silly question to me. What technical issues might you be referring to? I can't think of any. You might run the risk of making the audio muddy but your ears should be the final judge on that. Are you referring to the drum samples again? Drums which have been sampled with reverb can sometimes be gated to effectively remove the reverb trail. As far as adding additional reverb, I don't see that as an issue as long as it sounds ok.

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 3:51 pm

For question 2: Perhaps it would be better to talk about the reasons you add reverb to a mix and go from there. (Ie, to give everything the same 'room' and glue the mix together, to highlight individual elements with a more dramatic 'ambience' or effect...etc).

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:48 am

I haven't used Battery, but I think stereo drum samples are silly. Except for cases where there are multiple instruments, but then generally multiple instruments == considered a "loop", as krizrox discussed.

I can see having 2 signals that get mixed together in mono -- kick front plus kick beater; snare top plus snare chain -- gives you lots of tonal flexibility -- but that approach would certainly not be the traditional stereo (left / right) sample.

Every time you apply reverb to a recorded track, you're applying artificial reverb on top of the reflections etc recorded in the sound source. How many layers of reverb you add is up to you.

R.D. Olivaw · Post by **R.D. Olivaw** » Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:25 am

On 2005-06-12 13:28, raztalove wrote:
Well, here is my first question. What is the advantage of stereo drum samples over mono drum samples. For instance, battery comes with stereo drum samples. What sonic benefits does this yield if the drums are just going to be panned around the stereo image anyway.

The advantages of having stereo samples is that if you want a mono source, you have it (L+R) and if you want a stereo source you have it too. If Drums Kits Samples were provided with mono samples, everybody would complain.
But actually you can make a good stereo mix with mono panned sounds. It is even quite often useful to use mono sources in a stereo mix, because the position of each panned element will be more defined than with stereo samples.
In general, you must think about the instrument that is recorded. For example, a stereo rec of, let's say, an Alto Tom is non sense if you miced it close. If you are recording the Alto Tom in the room, a stereo take is usefull to record the place of the Tom in that room. But if you're close micing the tom, a stereo couple will be useless to record it, because the Tom does sound the same on its left and on its right. Of course you can use 2 mics to record the top and the bottom of the tom, but we're not talking about stereo here.

To make it short, there's no absolute advantage of dealing with stereo sounds instead of mono sounds. It depends of the recorded source, the way you recorded it (close or with room) and the musical style.
Samples manufacturers provide stereo samples because it's better to have too much than not enough : you can make a mono sound with a stereo sample easily.

raztalove · Post by **raztalove** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:00 am

Thanks for all the great advice guys.

I know the reverb question was a bit silly but a engineer once said something about double reverb to me and how it should never be done. Then he got into ultra technical talk. He was a purist, but it made me feel like i didnt know what the hell i was doing.

Ive always just used my ear, like you guys suggest.

This is a great forum and says a lot for creamware users. thanks again fellas.

RL

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Well, tried and true habits are fine, but when anyone tells me what I should NEVER do (barring putting a fork in a socket and the like) I sort of back away and run.

This isn't rocket science, it's music. Rules about what should and shouldn't be done should only apply to safety. Do what sounds good, do what best expresses your intention (which may evolve over time). Doing because it isn't done tends to cut short possible learning, and tends to encourage uniformity.

Double your reverb if it blows your skirt up!

Sam

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:04 am

Is it just me, or has nobody mentioned the fact that stereo samples are pretty much a pre-requisit if you plan on certain Stereo FX.

Good stereo drum samples will inevitably sound different to mono when say midi clocked (or not) Stereo delays are added. Like a tempo synced stereo panning delay, for example. In this scenario, L,R & even C channels could have different time signatures. This is something which will sound different with stereo samples as opposed to mono, especially if there are panning & spacial quirks in the stereo ones.

I simply can't imagine good stereo mixes not containing at least some stereo drum samples, not to mention the stereo presence in a surround mix.

Just my 2 cents worth

[ This Message was edited by: notbobmoog on 2005-06-21 05:06 ]

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:09 pm

Not if you are running one or more mono samples, appropriately panned, through a stereo buss. Then you can just put stereo effects on the bus, which is of course why busses are there in the first place.

And depending on how you are layering, this may be a better way to go, as --if you are using a stereo sample-- there will always be a certain amount of information in the left and the right channel, whereas if you are effecting a mono track or sample over a stereo buss, you have lots of non-commited control over what happens in the stereo field.

Sam

[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2005-06-21 13:12 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2005-06-21 13:15 ]

R.D. Olivaw · Post by **R.D. Olivaw** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 2:41 pm

On 2005-06-21 13:09, dehuszar wrote:
Then you can just put stereo effects on the bus, which is of course why busses are there in the first place.

It depends what you call "there". On desks, bus are there to route differents signals to 1/2 tracks when recording in the first place. Then it's there to make a group process during mix in the second place