Well I have seen the light, no more Nuendo mixer hello SFP!

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:43 am

Hi all,

Recently I had posted a question roughly about the sonic differences and qualities between using the hosts native mixer vrs. say an STM2448. I always use the STM2448 as my default but never exdtensivly used the CW mixer to buss every sound to it, I always just used it for CW deviced like synths and a few tracks I had bussed to the mixer that I was usuing effects like delays, chorus, vinco, interpole etc etc.

During that that in the thead there was no real deffinitive answer given regarding the sonic differences, a few ideas thrown out to conduct tests, but to be honest I am not as scientific as I would like to be and am more of a (if it sounds good to my ears) type.

So recently I had read a thread by Noah(thalamus), who explained he decided to mix entirely in SFP and was flawed by the summing of the STM, so I finally decided to create a project that could almost entirely bypass the Nuendo mixer, it still creates tracks for each sound and can also controle aspects like EQ, volume, pan laws etc, but I have it so every single sound goes to its own channel or group in the STM2448 via Asio2 ltf 64.

I gotta say in a non scientific test manner, to me everything just sounds more transparent, almost like the Nuendo mixer was adding distortion or some kind of compression to the master buss, now routed thru the STM mixer, things just sort of have more room to breath if that makes sense, its hard to place my finger exactly on it, but the sound is just clearer, pronounced and sweeter.

From here on, I will always make full use of my mixer channels hehe, nothing im sure many of you dont already know, but I think I finally just stepped things up in sonic quality in my mixes by a good margin, a track I am working on right now just sounds great with the new routing, everything is so spacious and clean sounding in in a state of bliss..

Anyways, just wanting to share my random thought for today

Cheers!

sonolive · Post by **sonolive** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:34 pm

hi ,

i totally agree with you !
i have made some few tests recently, mixing the same piece (only few tracks, drums, bass, gtr, vocal) with nuendo then with my digital magic strip.

the difference is clearly "audible" ... and i come to the same conlusions : it sounds more transparent and spacious !!!!

i can not explain it very well and why with some simple audio treatments (eq, comp, fx) the difference is so clear ...

at, first, in fact i thought i was not so subjective because i was the builder of the mixer and so on ... but at the end, and making ear the different mixes by some of my friend i am confident in, the result was always the same !!! it sounds much better with CW plugs and mixers !!!

i would be very glad to read other experiences by PZ forum users ... not only in favour of CW !!! of course .
And if some one could give us a good and objective explaination !

+++
olive

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:44 pm

Yes indeed. I must say, I've always worked this way round in Scope (and tried to encourage others to do so).....any other way just seems backwards to me......the Scope system really is the heart of the set-up: Cubase/Nuendo/Logic etc merely the vehicle for recording etc. [having said that, there are some great VST plugins & instruments around now which shouldn't be dismissed]....
Why does it sound better? - well I can't give you a scientific answer, but I kind of view it like a real mixing desk/studio.....it seems when tracks are split into different busses/channels in a quality desk, you get more separation - more definition....I think if everything is piped out of two channels in any sequencer prog, there just isn't any room to breath - somehow Scope gives you the space, and the ability to get gain structure etc right.....clever stuff - part of why I love it so much.

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:19 pm

I finally decided to create a project that could almost entirely bypass the Nuendo mixer

I wonder if it would be possible to TOTALLY bypass it.
I haven't tested sonic differences, but I just hate to have so many knobs and sliders to tweak...
If I could say to every track in nuendo "output this to asio out x" and "delete" the mixer, I would be happy.
And if I could load some VST plugs in SFP

Ganool · Post by **Ganool** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:25 pm

Plato... how is your set up to achive all this?

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:28 pm

Spoimala: turn on all ASIO ins and outs in the "Inputs" and "Outputs" devices; route each pair of channels (1/2, 3/4, ...) from and to a different bus; set panning hard left (1,3,5) and right (2,4,6); and away you go. 64 inputs and 62 outputs, if you use the ASIO 2 64 modules.

All I ever use Nuendo for is start, stop, and edit.

Post by **hubird** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:59 pm

plus ALL midi stuff...

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:02 pm

Same here with Sonar. Using Scope mixers (like the 2448) entirely. No comparison. Great sound. Trust your ears!

Same thing with Scope effects. They just sound better and that's all I need to know.

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:43 am

On 2004-07-29 16:25, Ganool wrote:
Plato... how is your set up to achive all this?

BUMP:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=13&3

I think that explains.....let me know if you need any more

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:12 am

Same here.

Just use the native sequencer like a tape deck (also use it for automation). That's it. Always mix in SFP. It may not be as convenient and quick but I prefer it this way.
Cheers.

firubbi · Post by **firubbi** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:04 am

as you said bassdude, i use sonar for edit and automation... rest is done by sfp

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:18 am

I would encourage you to have a test with SAW studio http://www.sawstudio.com
I'm a bit torn as it tends to sound alone better than Cubase/SFP combination. I think it uses 24-bit integer (double precision = 48-bit) mixing engine. It has fairly steep learning curve and the demo produces annoying beeps, but if you are able to import or record some tracks you'll notice the difference.
I'm looking a way to dump cubase entirelly from my mixing chain.

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:53 am

Stige,

This is partly why I am considering a new set up of Samplitude 8 routed through SFP, it seems Samplitude is supposidly known for the what goes in comes out theory versus the supposid distortion of tools like Nuendo trying to create a tape sound or analog model/ I am starting to think this will be a VERY powerfull combination especially with the new midi composition features in version 8.

Thanks all for replying, I knew I was not just hearing things, its not that big a deal, I actually sort of preffer it, it labels everything, so nothing is unknown, in Nuendo from the F4 buss key screen I just label each buss what it actually is, so in audio tracks or the mixer I just change the output accordingly and it now labels each track, then in the STM I edit tis track name to correspond, I used to be quite lazy in this regard and would let things get confussing heh, now I am forced to label

Cheers!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Basic Pitch on 2004-07-30 10:58 ]</font>

voidar · Post by **voidar** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 10:28 am

I too noticed an increase in headroom, transparency and stereo separation when starting to mix on DSP.

I find Tracktion to be the most transparent "tape deck" to compliment SFP if an arranger/editor is needed. Tracktion is great as it has no mixer to color your audio any further.

Though if I want minimum distortions (routing and conversion through ASIO) I tend to go with VDAT. VDAT also forces you to perform better as editing posibilities are minimal.

I will try to build my own analog summing buss soon (simple passive resistor network). Se how it compares to SFP.

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:28 pm

Cool Voidar! I'm very interested in hearing how that turns out...

Ganool · Post by **Ganool** » Fri Jul 30, 2004 1:48 pm

Thanks Plato and everybody else... I'm converted. Will try this now.

Cheers,

Carl.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:25 am

15 replies, no Logic user that liked SFP mixer better :>

Stige · Post by **Stige** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:21 am

I've heard logic users who says Cubase SX sounds better

medway · Post by **medway** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:36 am

On 2004-07-29 14:44, Plato wrote:
Yes indeed. I must say, I've always worked this way round in Scope (and tried to encourage others to do so).....any other way just seems backwards to me......the Scope system really is the heart of the set-up: Cubase/Nuendo/Logic etc merely the vehicle for recording etc. [having said that, there are some great VST plugins & instruments around now which shouldn't be dismissed]....
Why does it sound better? - well I can't give you a scientific answer, but I kind of view it like a real mixing desk/studio.....it seems when tracks are split into different busses/channels in a quality desk, you get more separation - more definition....I think if everything is piped out of two channels in any sequencer prog, there just isn't any room to breath - somehow Scope gives you the space, and the ability to get gain structure etc right.....clever stuff - part of why I love it so much.

Tell that ot william orbit. I read a while back on how he mixed an album(s) using just the stereo outs of a couple of akai samplers. He felt like the sound was better going through less channels.

I tried it myself at the same time and got great results as well.

Jesse

medway · Post by **medway** » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:38 am

On 2004-07-30 10:18, Stige wrote:
I would encourage you to have a test with SAW studio http://www.sawstudio.com
I'm a bit torn as it tends to sound alone better than Cubase/SFP combination. I think it uses 24-bit integer (double precision = 48-bit) mixing engine. It has fairly steep learning curve and the demo produces annoying beeps, but if you are able to import or record some tracks you'll notice the difference.
I'm looking a way to dump cubase entirelly from my mixing chain.

Agreed, just bought it myself. Not only does it sound great but the eq and comp built in is amazing and takes almost no CPU. Plus the fact that its done by one guy who answers every question on the forum and adds features within days of them being asked. Its coded in assembly too so its lighting quick even with full cpu load. It also compensates for aux sends to external hardware for no latency (except for converters).

All in all its an amazing piece of work. I still use SX2 and outboard to compose but for mixing SAW rocks really hard.

Jesse