about kmgr and timeworks

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:05 am

hi

anyone knows if kmgr support the "old" timeworks plugin and the last sharc device:
i had some problem here, some bug i think,
no answer from kmgr.

alessandro

deejaysly · Post by **deejaysly** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:47 pm

I've been firing questions at Kim about the Vintage EQ "features" that I and apprently others have found which is something I am disappointed with to say the least!

It has worked out so far that I send one e-mail, leave it a week, then send the same one again with subject appended with '2nd attempt' which tend to be the ones I got a reply to.

...and I think Kim supports Series III and the Sharc One but you may have to ask the question to be certain.

HTH

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:09 pm

What's wrong with vintage eq out of curiousity? That's one I've always wished I had (along with their comp).

Immanuel · Post by **Immanuel** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:23 pm

It adds a bump above the cut off frequency, if you use the low-cut. Also (I think I remember) there is a level difference between the 2 modes.

deejaysly · Post by **deejaysly** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:01 am

The "feature" I have noticed is to do with the hi and lo shelf functions.

If you set up a hi shelf with a frequency of 800Hz (if i remember right) and set the gain to 7dB, everything is fine.

MAKE SURE YOUR SPEAKER/HEADPHONE VOLUME IS LOW BEFORE THE NEXT PART!

If you set the gain now to 8dB, the gain actually jumps to something like 50dB!!! (I roughly measured this) It actually happens somewhere in between 7 and 8 dB can't remember the exact figure. Looks like the Vintage EQ can also double as an overdrive.

It would be good if someone can try this aswell just to confirm the same and to experience what I am talking about - I am surprised someone hasn't spotted this before and mentioned it on Z (I haven't seen it mentioned).

Another thing is that the gain point at which this happens varies with frequency, i.e. for 480Hz the switch in gain happens between 6.7 and 6.8dB if i remember right again.

Kim has acknowledged this and says he has spoke many times with other users and the designer of the algorithm. It appears to be a "feature" of the algorithm and something to do with setting bits aside in the algorithm when designing digital eqs to achieve a desired sound and headroom was mentioned aswell. I get the impression this can't be helped??

Kim suggested getting around this if you need that much gain by using two shelves in series.

Apparently this is a known characteristic and i am, therefore, suprised this has not been mentioned anywhere, i.e. by Timeworks, in advance of future purchases. It has kinda put me off Timeworks devices and I am having second thoughts about purchasing the P100 even though I have heard so many good words about it just like I have read on Z about the Vintage EQ.

I do not believe this is a result of Kim's series III update because I have tried the build when I first purchased the bundle in something like 2001 and it is still the same!

The reason I haven't mentioned it until now is because I thought it was a problem with my system as no-one else has mentioned it. It would be nice to find out whether others have this feature.

Would you accept a device with this kind of characteristic? It doesn't seem right to me somehow. What do you think?

[ This Message was edited by: deejaysly on 2004-07-02 03:14 ]

Plato · Post by **Plato** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:44 am

Hmmm......now you come to mention it, I remember having that happen too, but just put it down to some freak of nature at the time......I'll investigate some more.
The P100 is very good though, and I think just licensed by Timeworks....Warp 69 is independent

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:50 am

Well while it sounds like its definately strange behavior, digital filters can be tremendously fickle things i've heard.

In my opinion, anomolous behavior like that is good to be aware of in any gear so you can avoid the problems or work around them so thank you for sharing your findings so far. More important would be for 'features' like that to be documented (for example the sharc dsp phase issues) so that you can compensate for or avoid the anomolous behaviors that all systems produce. Unfortunately this information is often gotten only from experience (and hopefully no shredded speaker drivers).

In short, I wouldn't abandon the eq altogether, I would simply want to be aware of any other instabilities like that in the design. Heck, someone may even decide to 'exploit' those features for creative reasons someday (wouldn't be the first time).

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:12 am

I was about to put a new post up about the gain problem in the vintage eq after just recently purchasing it so I'm glad I caught this thread first. It doesn't stop you from using it but it is easy to do "accidently" which is bad for your ears and monitors etc. Definitely needs to be addressed so I'll also be sending them a mail about it!
If the problem is design related then surely a way of limiting user settings to prevent the gain jump, or possibly muting the output above a certain db threshold could be implemented?

[ This Message was edited by: bassdude on 2004-07-02 06:19 ]

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:26 am

hi

i have this problem too with the vintage eq
i think there's some adjust to do in the compx too
(i think there is a compx beta version around)
the problem with the sharc device is that sometimes i haven't sound and i must reload the device and when i edit and tweak the shark the parameter doesn't save with the project and this is very annoying i must save in the sharc preset
anyway no answer from kmgr mail and no answer in planetz forum.

alessandro

AndreD · Post by **AndreD** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:54 am

hi,
i discribed this problem in an email to st too, some years ago.
this bug seems to be unfixable and a cause of the 64 bit engine.
(remember, scope runs @ 32bit)

best,
andre

bassdude · Post by **bassdude** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:31 am

So build a version for 32bit, or build in protection, or detail the problem in the advertisement. They promote the 64 bit capability but then don't tell you about the limitation/bug which is false advertisement in my view and I would have thought twice about buying the plugin! I actually searched on the product here at the Z and did not come across this problem until it happened to me whilst playing!
People rag on Creamware for the "overpriced plugins" etc but they have worked as advertised for me and I have been happy!
I really like the EZ-Verb and want to buy the 4080L. Has anyone experienced problems with that before I lay down the cash?

wolf · Post by **wolf** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am

I really like the EZ-Verb and want to buy the 4080L. Has anyone experienced problems with that before I lay down the cash?

yes, even with the fadeInOut entry in cset.ini I get no sound quite often and have to reload the 4080L.
The P100 sounds great and works all the time.

best
wolfgang

[ This Message was edited by: wolf on 2004-07-02 10:05 ]

spiderman · Post by **spiderman** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:50 am

this "distortion" "feature" it's just great !!!! I like it a lot on drum tracks ! a very unique sound ! i don't want a bug fix at all !!
be creative

dbmac · Post by **dbmac** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:04 am

yes, even with the fadeInOut entry in cset.ini I get no sound quite often and have to reload the 4080L.

Same here. Also the CompressorX.

/dave

deejaysly · Post by **deejaysly** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:17 pm

Phew! It's nice to know others have experienced this - like Plato I thought the same, a freaky thing at the time.

While I am talking about it, I'll also say that you will also notice that some of the filters don't do anything on the 1 Band Mono.

Kim has addressed this and there is a fix which he has done but not sure when a series III update is due that will include this.

Kim also said that he got around this shelving problem for the filters in the Sharc One by, as bassdude suggested, limiting the frequency and gain ranges. I haven't tried this with the Sharc One but am not sure how this is true as the point where the gain switches varies with frequency but the frequency and gain ranges in the Sharc One are fixed!??!?

[ This Message was edited by: deejaysly on 2004-07-05 04:46 ]

MCCY · Post by **MCCY** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:58 pm

I'm waiting too for the promised updates. Beta of CompX exists since Christmas, if i'm remembering right. I'd like to give it away, but surely am not allowed too, so I won't do it. This is painful.

Martin

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Tue Jul 06, 2004 5:22 am

hi

2 days ago i mail to Molsen about this thread and i got a mail from Michael Olsen
about vintage eq and is impossible
fix the problem with the distortion sound in some frequencies at some db.
Please some of you mail him about the promise update. i have just sent him a mail when i ask about sharc one,compx mastercomp slow reales problem and 4080 reverb:

ale

[ This Message was edited by: cannonball on 2004-07-07 09:39 ]

deejaysly · Post by **deejaysly** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:19 am

Ahh, somebody is telling porkies???

So Michael said it is possible to fix this problem?? I got the feeling from Kim's response that this was not possible.

I think I should e-mail Michael to get the same response and forward it on to Kim - or can you do this for us cannonball?

cannonball · Post by **cannonball** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:37 am

hi

is impossible fix the problem in vintage eq
but there is some little problems
in the others devices too (sharc one compx
mastercomp 4080verb)
I have mail him about the others devices
but no answers.

[ This Message was edited by: cannonball on 2004-07-07 09:41 ]

deejaysly · Post by **deejaysly** » Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:40 am

Apologies cannonball, I misread your post before.

I'm starting to hallucinate. Maybe I should leave work now!

[ This Message was edited by: deejaysly on 2004-07-07 12:41 ]