Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:52 am
Ok, I've tried halion/kontakt/exs24 (mkI & II), absynth, linplug CronoX & RMIV, etc etc etc etc.
I also own our beloved STS2000/3000 & 5000 samplers.
What is it I'm trying to do? Well most samplers (all?) allow you to map samples across the keyboard (zones) in such a way that they key you press modifies the pitch of the sample (key position >mod> pitch) based on the root & zone limits you map etc.
What I want to be able to do is assign key position >mod> sample start so that each progressive key across the keyboard starts the sample that much further inward, until the highest note plays naught but a tiny slice at the end. Recycle/slicing/loop points need NOT apply here (although looping comes in later once the basic needs I'm after are met).
Why do I want to do this? Well I work with someone that relies heavily on this for getting loops in from various sample sources and manipulating them in his Emu. The process really is rather organic and since it works so well there's a fair bit you can do to 'paint' or draw your midi 'groove' in and then use the rest of the mod matrix/filter etc capabilites to 'fit' the sample(s) into your tune. Not ONE software sampler seems to do this really well and yet its something that is fairly commonly used in house & older 'Jungle' at the very least (akai & emu both).
EXS24 & Kontakt seem to be the only 2 samplers (haven't tried fruityloops) that will load as a plugin/vst and do what I want. I created a 'test' project @120bpm with a midi part looped across the first 4 bars, 1 midi note per bar. First note is mapped C1, then C3, then C5, then C8 (not 7, as I wanted to test full extension)
Here's the original loop:
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/Test.mp3 (about 30 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Exs24 II has the right things in its mod matrix, but the sample start position mod destination doesn't really seem to affect playback much more than a few hundred milliseconds at its extreme. If you listen to the sample below you'll hear the first 3 triggers moving slightly forward but not really enough to make this technique worth using in EXS24 II. Interestingly enough at its extreme the last 2 trigger points seem to be pretty much the same...
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/EXSTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Kontakt actually will ALMOST do the correct thing, by disabling 'TRACKING' and removing all mod values, then creating a mod under the sample engine Key Position MOD>Sample start with a slider value of 100%. BUT the 'root mapping' seems to be stuck at C3 regardless of what you set in the kontakt gui when you disable the 'Tracking' function. I logged this bug almost 2 years ago with NI and they have yet to fix it (I've logged it a few more times just for kicks...sigh). What this means is that while Kontakt is more useful you only get half the resolution (C3 on up) that you would get in a hardware Emu/Akai sampler, in practice i've found this limits me to about 5seconds worth of loop time before I start feeling like my timing with key>mod>sample start is too 'loose' to get right on the money to trigger the sample where I want. If you listen to the loop below you'll hear the first 2 trigger points are actually identical (since C1 essentially triggers from the beginning as well as C3).
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/KONTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Now I have recycle and wavelab in my arsenal and am fully aware that I can set up complex zones and loop mappings, cut in recycle, use the 'oldskool' method in EXS24 II etc etc etc...but none of these seem to replicate the organic 'live' manipulation of the sample start position that can be achieved in any trusty old emu. Oh, and I don't even see a way to achieve this in most other samplers (Halion, RMIV, and all STS's don't even have the proper settings in their mod matrices).
I also own our beloved STS2000/3000 & 5000 samplers.
What is it I'm trying to do? Well most samplers (all?) allow you to map samples across the keyboard (zones) in such a way that they key you press modifies the pitch of the sample (key position >mod> pitch) based on the root & zone limits you map etc.
What I want to be able to do is assign key position >mod> sample start so that each progressive key across the keyboard starts the sample that much further inward, until the highest note plays naught but a tiny slice at the end. Recycle/slicing/loop points need NOT apply here (although looping comes in later once the basic needs I'm after are met).
Why do I want to do this? Well I work with someone that relies heavily on this for getting loops in from various sample sources and manipulating them in his Emu. The process really is rather organic and since it works so well there's a fair bit you can do to 'paint' or draw your midi 'groove' in and then use the rest of the mod matrix/filter etc capabilites to 'fit' the sample(s) into your tune. Not ONE software sampler seems to do this really well and yet its something that is fairly commonly used in house & older 'Jungle' at the very least (akai & emu both).
EXS24 & Kontakt seem to be the only 2 samplers (haven't tried fruityloops) that will load as a plugin/vst and do what I want. I created a 'test' project @120bpm with a midi part looped across the first 4 bars, 1 midi note per bar. First note is mapped C1, then C3, then C5, then C8 (not 7, as I wanted to test full extension)
Here's the original loop:
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/Test.mp3 (about 30 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Exs24 II has the right things in its mod matrix, but the sample start position mod destination doesn't really seem to affect playback much more than a few hundred milliseconds at its extreme. If you listen to the sample below you'll hear the first 3 triggers moving slightly forward but not really enough to make this technique worth using in EXS24 II. Interestingly enough at its extreme the last 2 trigger points seem to be pretty much the same...
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/EXSTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Kontakt actually will ALMOST do the correct thing, by disabling 'TRACKING' and removing all mod values, then creating a mod under the sample engine Key Position MOD>Sample start with a slider value of 100%. BUT the 'root mapping' seems to be stuck at C3 regardless of what you set in the kontakt gui when you disable the 'Tracking' function. I logged this bug almost 2 years ago with NI and they have yet to fix it (I've logged it a few more times just for kicks...sigh). What this means is that while Kontakt is more useful you only get half the resolution (C3 on up) that you would get in a hardware Emu/Akai sampler, in practice i've found this limits me to about 5seconds worth of loop time before I start feeling like my timing with key>mod>sample start is too 'loose' to get right on the money to trigger the sample where I want. If you listen to the loop below you'll hear the first 2 trigger points are actually identical (since C1 essentially triggers from the beginning as well as C3).
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/KONTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)
Now I have recycle and wavelab in my arsenal and am fully aware that I can set up complex zones and loop mappings, cut in recycle, use the 'oldskool' method in EXS24 II etc etc etc...but none of these seem to replicate the organic 'live' manipulation of the sample start position that can be achieved in any trusty old emu. Oh, and I don't even see a way to achieve this in most other samplers (Halion, RMIV, and all STS's don't even have the proper settings in their mod matrices).
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