Software Sampler woes

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:52 am

Ok, I've tried halion/kontakt/exs24 (mkI & II), absynth, linplug CronoX & RMIV, etc etc etc etc.

I also own our beloved STS2000/3000 & 5000 samplers.

What is it I'm trying to do? Well most samplers (all?) allow you to map samples across the keyboard (zones) in such a way that they key you press modifies the pitch of the sample (key position >mod> pitch) based on the root & zone limits you map etc.

What I want to be able to do is assign key position >mod> sample start so that each progressive key across the keyboard starts the sample that much further inward, until the highest note plays naught but a tiny slice at the end. Recycle/slicing/loop points need NOT apply here (although looping comes in later once the basic needs I'm after are met).

Why do I want to do this? Well I work with someone that relies heavily on this for getting loops in from various sample sources and manipulating them in his Emu. The process really is rather organic and since it works so well there's a fair bit you can do to 'paint' or draw your midi 'groove' in and then use the rest of the mod matrix/filter etc capabilites to 'fit' the sample(s) into your tune. Not ONE software sampler seems to do this really well and yet its something that is fairly commonly used in house & older 'Jungle' at the very least (akai & emu both).

EXS24 & Kontakt seem to be the only 2 samplers (haven't tried fruityloops) that will load as a plugin/vst and do what I want. I created a 'test' project @120bpm with a midi part looped across the first 4 bars, 1 midi note per bar. First note is mapped C1, then C3, then C5, then C8 (not 7, as I wanted to test full extension)

Here's the original loop:
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/Test.mp3 (about 30 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)

Exs24 II has the right things in its mod matrix, but the sample start position mod destination doesn't really seem to affect playback much more than a few hundred milliseconds at its extreme. If you listen to the sample below you'll hear the first 3 triggers moving slightly forward but not really enough to make this technique worth using in EXS24 II. Interestingly enough at its extreme the last 2 trigger points seem to be pretty much the same...
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/EXSTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)

Kontakt actually will ALMOST do the correct thing, by disabling 'TRACKING' and removing all mod values, then creating a mod under the sample engine Key Position MOD>Sample start with a slider value of 100%. BUT the 'root mapping' seems to be stuck at C3 regardless of what you set in the kontakt gui when you disable the 'Tracking' function. I logged this bug almost 2 years ago with NI and they have yet to fix it (I've logged it a few more times just for kicks...sigh). What this means is that while Kontakt is more useful you only get half the resolution (C3 on up) that you would get in a hardware Emu/Akai sampler, in practice i've found this limits me to about 5seconds worth of loop time before I start feeling like my timing with key>mod>sample start is too 'loose' to get right on the money to trigger the sample where I want. If you listen to the loop below you'll hear the first 2 trigger points are actually identical (since C1 essentially triggers from the beginning as well as C3).
http://www.kief.net/studio/planetz/KONTest.mp3 (about 8 seconds, caution peak volume is about -3db)

Now I have recycle and wavelab in my arsenal and am fully aware that I can set up complex zones and loop mappings, cut in recycle, use the 'oldskool' method in EXS24 II etc etc etc...but none of these seem to replicate the organic 'live' manipulation of the sample start position that can be achieved in any trusty old emu. Oh, and I don't even see a way to achieve this in most other samplers (Halion, RMIV, and all STS's don't even have the proper settings in their mod matrices).

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:03 am

I guess I forgot to say, does anyone have any ideas?

A softsampler I missed? Something I missed in one of the ones I tried or the STS samplers?

petal · Post by **petal** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:55 am

I'm not sure if this is any help at all, but the only program I can think of is Max/MSP. I don't know if you would be able to program a patch in it, that would be able to do what you describe, but then again, the most impossible things seems possible in Max/MSP.
You can get it here - free 1-month trial version available:

http://www.cycling74.com/index.html

I have to warn you though, this isn't a drag an drop-kind of program, it's a visual programming environment, specially design for multimedia-productions of any kind including some powerfull audio-tools/functions.

Maybe you could ask Kensuguro, I think he's one of the people here on PLanetZ who knows most about Max/MSP.

Not much help I know it, but it might lead you in an interesting direction.

Thomas

[ This Message was edited by: petal on 2003-10-07 07:57 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:58 pm

I'm somewhat familiar with MAX/MSP having read about it for many years. I haven't had a mac for a year or so and was surprised to find out not too long ago its available for windows. I downloaded the demo but don't see any way to easily use it alongside Logic/SFP.

Unfortunately I'm looking for a vst-type plugin and not a standalone solution. I know gigastudio will accomodate what I'm after but again that (to me) is a standalone solution and one that requires a dedicated pc as well (or would add to much overhead to run alongside my Logic projects I'm sure).

I've been waiting for quite some time to see the Emu/Akai/MOTU software samplers and see if they're worth investing in although it hurts to acquire yet ANOTHER software sampler that's heavily redundant next to Kontakt/exs24.

I'll still hold out hope that someone knows a better (vst?) solution since Emu/Akai/MOTU seem to be largely vaporware at the moment (at least for pc)....I'm amazed that the number of people supposedly dumping their hardware samplers for software aren't clamoring to have this working properly in software solutions...

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2003-10-07 21:49 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 2:48 pm

yeah, it would be easy to set up in Max/msp, but then it's not exactly what you may be looking for. An easy way to do it in Max/MSP would be to find out the entire length of the sample, divide that by however many keys you want to map it to, and there you go. I'd set it up as a VST plugin if I had Pluggo, which wraps Max/MSP patches into VST instruments.. but then Pluggo's only available for mac. And although Max/MSP will let you do just about anything, I wouldn't recommend it as an efficient tool.

I'm looking into synthedit, a VST instrument maker for PC. I'm not sure if it has the sample manipulation capabilities you want.. but I'll tell ya if I come up with anything interesting.

Most of the time tho, it's much easier buying a prefab program if one exists. Especially since what you're looking for doesn't seem too hard to implement. I'm guessing SOMEBODY must have done it earlier.

Also, I should mension that moving start point is also a part of granular synthesis. Not sure if you can map that to keys, but I remember a free standalone granular synth called granulab had that parameter atleast. So, you may want to check out some granular synthesis solutions as well. You may not map it to keys, but I'd guess you can map it to CCs.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-10-08 15:54 ]

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:43 pm

I've actually had granulab for a long time, its good for interesting experiments but the thing I'm after here has a lot to do with creative workflow.

It seems that almost every piece of software I find is geared towards 'slicing' an audiofile and/or triggering based on transient material (drums) which is definately something I do my share of. However, the simple act of Sample Start being MODified by Key Position allows yet another creative flow, "painting" in a groove from a single long waveform. Being able to interact with this with additional MOD interactions and cc values allows effects and fine tuning within the groove, but aren't a replacement for 'painting' the groove itself. Think Acid or ableton live but driven by midi and polyphonic (with polyphonic filters/lfo's etc). Its important that the audio remain intact (unsliced) for this to work properly. I've played a lot with EXS's 'oldskool' slicing method when importing rex files, or trying to replicate this technique just by tracking the audio out on a few tracks and it always sounds too "programmed" for my tastes...though these currently are my only options.

I have to say that after 2 years of looking into applications and buying different software I'm about ready to go BACK to hardware sampling to meet this need.

C'mon, software sampler that allows Key Position to mod Sample Start (mapped to the ENTIRE 128 steps on the piano roll!) Someone's got to know of something....

valis · Post by **valis** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:24 am

I wonder if the switch that says "off" over the 'sample start' knob in the following pic has 'key position' as an option...

http://www.audiomidi.com/assets/3574_mo ... pg?clid=76

I'm on PC so i'll have to wait & see if I should be shelling out $400...

[edit]:

http://www.motu.com/english/software/ma ... etail.html

bit more of a detail on that area has a tantalizing label over the sample start knob...

Still no word on Akai's Vz8, its not even on their websites as a product yet.

As for emu's new hardware/software sampler series that was announced in 2000, who the heck knows what creative labs has done to it (probably rebranded it a software soundcard

)

Now, are there any software samplers that I may have missed that I should check out? I know there's a million free vsti things out there, but I'll shy away from anything that's built in synthedit since they tend to be really cpu heavy...so with that in mind anyone have any ideas?

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2003-10-10 01:55 ]