Considering a pulsar purchase, new questions, part II..

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:38 pm

Greetings all at PlanteZ,

Thank you in advance for all the wonderfull insight and help you have provided me with in my last thread, I have some new questions and figured I would just clean the slate and start a fresh thread, so here goes..

Ok, I am getting much closer to making my decision, I am thinking I may just go with a PowerPulsar II, even though after speaking with CW on the phone today, they said a Pulsar II could facilitate my needs with the way I work, so my thought it to see if I can demo a Pulsar II first and if I like the system and find I need more juice, send it back and step up to a PowerPulsar II.

Any way my new question is really based around the routing feature set and bouncing situation with CW cards, I asked the sales department, but unfortunately he was un able to give me 100% on my question and asked I email support, I told him I have like 10 days to make my decision on the card and he assured me my email would be answered ASAP.

So the questions are the following.

- Being that if I am understanding correct, no matter what mode the CW card is run in, it is not possible to use export audio or bounce selection in a host to quickly and efficiently grab the audio to be bounced as a wave file. I assume all effects and synths must therefore be treated as if they were outboard gear. So would that mean I would then need to apply effects to the track synths/vocals what not, send them out of the CW card to an external mixer and then rout it back into the CW card via buss etc and record the audio in realtime? or is there an easier method to this work around?

- If there are any Nuendo users here, Nuendo has an additional export feature called "realtime" export that records while it plays back, I was wondering if the CW card could then be used as most native or other DSP cards work in the situation of a bounce..

As an example, lets say I apply a reverb and some EQs and Compressors to a project, when I export at the end all the effect is automatically part of the export, now I know CW cards for some odd reason can not do this feature, but would a realtime export work instead in Nuendo?

If not could any ellaborate how I would go about routing the sound back into nuendo if I did not go to my outboard mixer? If its at all possible I would love to keep the sound in the digital realm, though, maybe passing the sound thru and analog board could warm it up some lol..

Any ways, as usual, all help is greatly appreciated folks..

Cheers!

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:55 pm

Almost forgot!

What about using apps like Soundforge and Wavelab? Can the effects be applied in there aswell? I am curious because I like to do some minor mastering tweaks before I turn in a mix, I want the engineer at the plant to be able to understand the direction I am going in for the sound I want, so I send one flat direct out of Nuendo and one that I think has the sytle of mastering I am looking for, beit more bass heavy or more punchy etc etc.

So can these effects be applied in a editor such as the above mentioned?

Post by **garyb** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:23 pm

afaik realtime export works as such.you do not need to use an external mixer if not bouncing otherwise.use the nuendo mixer and/or the sfp mixer.the mixdown can be routed just like hardware.(send it to an unused track in nuendo,send it to a dat machine,send it to wavelab or samplitude,send it to vdat or tdat,send it to sts sampler)

i use logic which is pretty much the same.i use sfp mode for the routing while i am recording.i use logic as a stand alone multitrack.when i am finished with a midi track i record it to audio immediately.it only takes a minute and i can still save the midi data.routing is easy and the are no funny glitches or latency from my synths.they behave like hardware.traditionally,this is what happens in a studio.

when i am ready to mixdown,i use xtc mode and all of my sfp plugs are available in the logic mixer.i also have altered my xtc project(the set-up in the routing window)to include my adat i/o so that i can use my outboard if i wish.i send all the mix out my aes/ebu connector to the sp/dif in on my dat so that my computer can use the MAXIMUM resources for mixdown.(the day is purely a data storage device)i can then send the mixes in the aes/ebu connector to master in samplitude.

everyone has different ways of working and there are no hard rules.the method i describe gives maximun resources and flexibility for me.other methods might be a little quicker,but probably also will have inferior results.(or will need simpler mixes because of resource allotment)

regardless of the system,computer power always has a limit.the trick is getting the most result for your money and skill level.(as mr. burns once said,"i'd trade it all for a little more.....")

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:25 pm

There's no need to leave the digital realm if you want to bounce an audio track processed through sfp, all you have to do is to route the signal back to your sequencer through the asio destination module and record the processed track while the song plays. Very simple! Or if you have only a stereo track you can record directly in a sts sampler and avoid any "outside" routing. Vdat permits you to record multiple tracks at once directly in the sfp environment. Otherwise, you can easily connect what you want where you want and that is one of the strengths of this system!

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:33 pm

The routing system in SFP mode allows you to apply effects to ANYTHING and then route it back into ASIO/Wave/whatever. Send all your tracks through multiple ASIO channels, route it through all the effects/submixers/main mixers/Modular patches/etc. and then mix it all down to ASIO on the spot. Once you've used SFP mode you won't care a cent about XTC as it has severe problems. You can't bounce anything as far as I know (I don't know about Nuendo), so you've lost the convenience of VST -- and it's far less flexible. In that case you'd use the normal SFP mode. You can't go wrong!

What WOULD be nice is to use XTC and SFP at the same time, but you can't do that.

So stick to SFP.

Shayne
http://www.shaynesworld.com

emzee · Post by **emzee** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:58 am

What country are you in?

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:33 am

it is indeed best to treat everything inside the pulsar environment as a proper hardware studio when thinking about recording/mixdown.

The reason you have bounce within something like Cubase with VSTi's is that it's all in the same app. Don't forget Pulsar stuff is running inside it's own software (SFP) and on it's own hardware as well so it's not directly integrated into the sequencer for bouncing. They might be able to develop this feature in the future though. I just don't think it's really that strange that you can't bounce Pulsar instruments.

You do not need a hardware mixer to record the outputs back though. SFP let's you easily throw all the audio signals around within SFP itself. Audio drivers (Wave, ASIO etc.) are represented as "modules", a "source" (which brings the audio into SFP) and a "destination" (which takes it out again to another app or hardware output).

So you can have an audio track in Nuendo, send this via ASIO to the Pulsar, treat it with fx there, and send it back via ASIO to record on a new track in Nuendo, or send it to a Wave destination to record it in Wavelab/Soundforge. Or the other way around. All this with an easy graphical representation of your signal paths.

like this:

My basic setup, mixing 8 stereo ASIO channels from the Cubase busses, a wave source for Wavelab output, a Z-link source, which give me the signals from my Nord Rack via the external Luna I/O box.
The PS analog source is where my guitar is connected.
This goes into a simple mixer and the output is routed back to ASIO and Wave destinations, and Z-link output which is the hardware audio output that goes to my amp.
_________________

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2003-08-19 05:38 ]

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:51 am

/Cring...

Hrmm, looking at that seems to make some sense but at the start I will only have the pulsar card with out any sort of break out, does it make any difference in the available routing possibilites? Also on a side note I see you are using the midi aspect of the card, this I have no need for since I run a Midex8 (128) channels i/o..

So I guess its all a amatter of run utilizing the SFP enviorment to rout outs of the scource back into the card and it will show up as an input in Nuendo? Confusing at the start ide say, I guess I would have to configure inputs inside of nuendo as sort of dummy ins to be able to do what we are talking about, unless I am totally off base..

Cheers!

Mr Arkadin · Post by **Mr Arkadin** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:10 am

Don't confuse hardware routing with software routing - remember once you're in SFP you can do anything in terms of ASIO sources/destinations. So if you have 16 Nuendo tracks going to to Busses 1-16 you'd set ASIO Source to 32 (16 stereo outputs). The buss outputs appear as ASIO sources in SFP.

Likewise, on VST i only have one stereo input, so i route the master LR output of the SFP mixer to the ASIO Dest, which you can just about see top right in King of Snake's neato piccy. i also run the master LR output to the stereo output for monitoring purposes (King of Snake is using the Z-Link out in his screengrab).

Look at the screengrab carefully, the mixer output is being fed to the ASIO input (ie. into the input of your sequencer), not back into the soundcard. So if you had the Pulsar Analog Source module routed into the ASIO Dest module you would get external audio from whatever was connected to the analogue ins and if you connect the mixer out to the ASIO Dest module that becomes the audio source. With SFP you can route pretty much what you fancy anywhere - the beauty is in the flexibility (and the the synths... etc.)

As for MIDI, to be honest you're better off using the external box (i use Midex3) as i've never been that impressed with the SFP MIDI timing.

[ This Message was edited by: Mr Arkadin on 2003-08-19 12:22 ]

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:54 pm

Hrmm, looking at that seems to make some sense but at the start I will only have the pulsar card with out any sort of break out, does it make any difference in the available routing possibilites?

it only makes a difference in sofar that you can connect less outboard gear, since you only have one stereo analog input/output on the card itself. It doesn't matter for your routing of the audio within the computer (ie. from Nuendo/Wavelab to SFP and back). The breakout box just means I have enough inputs to use all four (mono) outputs of the Nord Rack and still have room to spare for future instruments.

btw. You can also add extra I/O via the ADAT connectors on the card.

I know it sometimes doesn't make much sense when you see it for the first time but for most people it works very well and pretty easy once you get the hang of it.
I think it would be safe to say that Creamware has the most flexible routing system available by far though.

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: King of Snake on 2003-08-19 13:56 ]

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 3:12 pm

Well if I go with a CW card I plan to eventually get a breakout box, but for now I just rout all my hardweare synths through my mackie 2408 through subs into the card ins.

On a side note I just heard rumor that by using Nuendos "realtime" export allows you you to bounce through XTC in a sense, it still has to be played but you would not need to rout via ASIO through the SFP enviorment, you simple just export the audio in its purest signal directly within the Nuendo system..

Thats rather interesting, couple that with full PDC and your talking about a nice setup, " if it works "....

Cheers!

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:27 pm

As you explain it, I can't find any real difference between the Nuendo realtime and just recording to a new track, except that perhaps Nuendo places the bounce where the 'pre-FX, n' whatever else you did to the file' was in the track.

With SFP you'd just bounce it to a new track, delete the old one and use the new one in it's place. Or if you're like me and do work for other people's (who don't own Creamware stuff) tracks, keep all the raw, pre-FXd tracks in a track folder, and then leave the bounced tracks in plain view so they can go back to the original cut if they need/want to.

Hope that helps,
Sam

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:36 pm

Consider getting a Pulsar II for synths and samplers and a UAD 1 for compressors, EQs and reverbs.

I use my 7 DSPs just for synths (Minimax) in XTC mode and it works great. SFP mode would be good if you have a lot of outboard gear but since I have none I work faster in XTC.

So you could use your Pulsar in XTC making your whole system integrated with your sequencer.

I had troubles with XTC mode in Logic that magically disappeared with Cubase.

[ This Message was edited by: R-type on 2003-08-19 23:38 ]

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:56 pm

dehuszar,

If I understood what I read correctly, using a realtime export eliminates the nead to rout back into nuendo through ASIO and allows you to apply effects and either bounce tracks during the mix or evenb at the end do a realtime export for the whole track with synths, effects and such in one shot with out having to record back in.

In essence, it is basically a true bounce or rendering, only you have to listen while it plays out or atmost wait for the lenth of the track to play. So basically it eliminates a few steps that are cumbersome to workflow depending on how you work..

On a side note, how would you guys honestly rate the quality of the effect plugs that are bundled with scope systems? such as Pulsar/powerpulsar? would you say they are better than say waves? or maybe the equivilent to most native plugs? compared to say TC Powercore etc etc?

I am so close and so tempted to order me up a pulsar I am just confused here I get the urge to do it, on my sequencer forum where I have asked if there are any pulsar users peoplke think I am insane to entertain the idea of getting rid of a Lynx card lol, who knows hehe

Cheers!

Post by **garyb** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:24 am

you hit the rendering thing on the head.as far as plugs go,pulsar plugs are very like the kind of effects that you would get from traditional hardware devices.lots of basic sonic tools.the audio quality is excellent,but they are not sexy or flashy.they are the kind of bread and butter effects that a WELL equipped studio must have.don't misunderstand,you can do crazy things,they just have simple interfaces for the most part.they are not of the waves wowie zowie type.

if you see the third party devices you will see the similarity to hardware emphasized(with some notable exceptions,like fither and dirt.....).sfp is virtual reality,the routing window is the analogue(

) of the real world.the same sorts of connections can being made.the cool thing is that connections can be made in and out of the computer and between programs simultaneously and with no more latency than hardware.

if there is a specific plug on another card that you like,you can still use it,but the sfp environment let's you run a pretty sophisticated studio at a very low cost(relatively).it is the thing that connects everything.the other cards can only work in a limited set of circumstances(vst sequencers),which are subject to similar problems as xtc,a vst OPTION that works PERFECTLY for me as opposed to say,the duplicator i'm looking at that seems to be rejecting as many as it prints,must be a bad buch of discs..........

the pulsar card was used on the soundtrack of the movie "gladiator" which won an academy award for sound.it was also used on "blackhawk down".(man,they were getting us ready...)the sound quality is more than sufficient.

i have noticed that the results depend on the skill of the engineer.if one owned or used a studio,it would be best if he were an engineer.i am working to be a better one.

use what you like,of course.....