Very interesting... I have not tried an STS test.. I'm not a fan of the sampler interface so I never use it.. I'll try and test when I have time.
I could not even load a single device before getting PCI overload when I tried it on the Sony Vaio.
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-09-10 21:06 ]</font>
Laptop buying guide
-
Volkmar123
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany / Africa
-
Volkmar123
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany / Africa
Thanks,
so it is very easy.
1. :
Just drag down the sts sampler device
in any sfp 3.1 project.
I often got this pci capcity error message with some notebooks then.
If everythings ok. then
2.:
increase the voices up to 64.
maybe change the sample rate in the settings to 48 khz oe even 96 khz.
This should work, if the system is ok.
It is that simple, on a good running system.
Wish you good luck.
Volkmar
P.S. if you do not need your STS 5000, I am looking for to buy one, so I only have the STS 4000, update is 219 Euro for me.
offers to afriko@gmx.de
so it is very easy.
1. :
Just drag down the sts sampler device
in any sfp 3.1 project.
I often got this pci capcity error message with some notebooks then.
If everythings ok. then
2.:
increase the voices up to 64.
maybe change the sample rate in the settings to 48 khz oe even 96 khz.
This should work, if the system is ok.
It is that simple, on a good running system.
Wish you good luck.
Volkmar
P.S. if you do not need your STS 5000, I am looking for to buy one, so I only have the STS 4000, update is 219 Euro for me.
offers to afriko@gmx.de
Well, I went to the Apple store to check and see if a Powerbook (the 15' one) would work. Everything loaded up fine and I could totally fill up my DSPs, but in terms of track-count/STS stuff, I got a mixed bag.
At first I could load up 5 reverbs with no overflows, then after SFP crashed only 3 (even after a reboot/coldboot). At first I could also go up to ~50 voices in STS, no problem, then only 35 voices. Then it just was going haywire and not letting me load the sampler at all without overflowing.
I just sent my Magma back to see if it is broken or malfuncioning in some way and will let yall know what I find, but I should be able to get more than a few tracks worth of bandwidth on a Powerbook. There's just no way.
Sam
At first I could load up 5 reverbs with no overflows, then after SFP crashed only 3 (even after a reboot/coldboot). At first I could also go up to ~50 voices in STS, no problem, then only 35 voices. Then it just was going haywire and not letting me load the sampler at all without overflowing.
I just sent my Magma back to see if it is broken or malfuncioning in some way and will let yall know what I find, but I should be able to get more than a few tracks worth of bandwidth on a Powerbook. There's just no way.
Sam
I tried the STS voices test on my system just now (with the STS2000P).
I did get a PCI overload when I dragged the voices to 64, but a re-optimization (i.e. clicking the 'retry' button) worked fine, and the system settled down OK.
I was not able to reproduce this at 48khz: pressing 'retry' led to the repetitive cycle of PCI overload errors.
My advice is to rethink the Magma solution for using the samplers... I do not think it is a realistic option. While I have had no problems whatsoever using my laptop and Magma/Pulsar, I do not do things like run 64-voice samplers or multiple reverbs. I use my system for:
- 10-16 channel ASIO out, and 2-4 channel ASIO in
- mixing with Micromixer
- modular3 and FleXor
- some synths and effects (including delays)
- lots of audio routing
- maybe 1 reverb (masterverb)
I use the system at 44.1kHz, 16bit, and use Logic as my sequencer.
peace
I did get a PCI overload when I dragged the voices to 64, but a re-optimization (i.e. clicking the 'retry' button) worked fine, and the system settled down OK.
I was not able to reproduce this at 48khz: pressing 'retry' led to the repetitive cycle of PCI overload errors.
My advice is to rethink the Magma solution for using the samplers... I do not think it is a realistic option. While I have had no problems whatsoever using my laptop and Magma/Pulsar, I do not do things like run 64-voice samplers or multiple reverbs. I use my system for:
- 10-16 channel ASIO out, and 2-4 channel ASIO in
- mixing with Micromixer
- modular3 and FleXor
- some synths and effects (including delays)
- lots of audio routing
- maybe 1 reverb (masterverb)
I use the system at 44.1kHz, 16bit, and use Logic as my sequencer.
peace
Well, I don't have much use for 64-voices in a sampler, but I didn't have a MAC version of any sequencers that would activate the ASIO drivers. You can load them to oblivion, but until they are activated, they take up no resources. I think it's a driver optimisation thing. I just used STS cause it'll allocate whatever bandwidth it needs immediately. I can't imagine my ever using more than 16 voices per sampler. I'm not cheating out a symphony's worth of strings or anything.
Sam
Sam
Totally.. my post was mainly directed to Volkmar who requested me to do the test.
Incidentally, Sam, maybe you can try some kind of simple VST host on the Mac in order to test ASIO.. I'm sure there are a few around. Possibly you could also try the Ableton Live demo (or the public beta of version 3 which is around at the moment).
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-09-13 17:56 ]</font>
Incidentally, Sam, maybe you can try some kind of simple VST host on the Mac in order to test ASIO.. I'm sure there are a few around. Possibly you could also try the Ableton Live demo (or the public beta of version 3 which is around at the moment).
peace
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-09-13 17:56 ]</font>
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Volkmar123
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany / Africa
Thanks for your testing.
So my old notebook systems (bullman 333mhz, win 98)
can pass this sts 4000, 64 voices
(indeed I need this for playing live,
to run it stable with 12 voices (this is not a symphony) it has to pass this test with 64 voices,
otherwise you will get in problems if your not just testing it
but playing it....)
Anyway I quess there is maybe somethings
not too good with creamware or magmas
windows xp drivers...
So my old notebook systems (bullman 333mhz, win 98)
can pass this sts 4000, 64 voices
(indeed I need this for playing live,
to run it stable with 12 voices (this is not a symphony) it has to pass this test with 64 voices,
otherwise you will get in problems if your not just testing it
but playing it....)
Anyway I quess there is maybe somethings
not too good with creamware or magmas
windows xp drivers...
Well, I have some bad news to report. Magma has given my chassis a clean bill of health. Therefore if every laptop has given me the same results, then it can only be concluded that the results are because of the Magma chassis as a solution. In light of this, the $3300 Dell laptop is a retarded amount of money to pay for such limitations. I'm at the point where I think I'd rather fall back on CubaseSX bussing for ASIO stuff and save the bandwidth for sampling. I think that centrinos will provide just about the same performance across the board, provided it is not sharing too many IRQ's and isn't bogged down with too much fluff hardware.
I'm, oddly enough, looking at the new Compaq nx7000. It's much cheaper, but retains a powerful video card (Radeon 9200 64MB and a mere 1680 × 1050 resolution.
The only other fluff spec is the SD card slot, and as I have an MP3 player with SD card expansion it might be a nice contrivance. Though it's otherwise bare.
It's also worth reporting that the M60's cardbus controller (TI-7510) is one that the Magma people have never heard of. The chipset also controls a Smart Card reader and the firewire port, so that might be a factor.
Anyway, I hope that those who have been following this have heeded my advice and have held on to their wallets as I feel at the asking price, there is something out there that will work as well for much less.
I'll keep yall informed as I hear more. Paul has told me that the Acer he has bought is highly recommended from the CW folk in Germany, so perhaps some of you CW people who work out of the mothership can comment on any tests you guys have had the opportunity to run.
Thanks, and good luck for those still looking.
Sam
I'm, oddly enough, looking at the new Compaq nx7000. It's much cheaper, but retains a powerful video card (Radeon 9200 64MB and a mere 1680 × 1050 resolution.
The only other fluff spec is the SD card slot, and as I have an MP3 player with SD card expansion it might be a nice contrivance. Though it's otherwise bare.
It's also worth reporting that the M60's cardbus controller (TI-7510) is one that the Magma people have never heard of. The chipset also controls a Smart Card reader and the firewire port, so that might be a factor.
Anyway, I hope that those who have been following this have heeded my advice and have held on to their wallets as I feel at the asking price, there is something out there that will work as well for much less.
I'll keep yall informed as I hear more. Paul has told me that the Acer he has bought is highly recommended from the CW folk in Germany, so perhaps some of you CW people who work out of the mothership can comment on any tests you guys have had the opportunity to run.
Thanks, and good luck for those still looking.
Sam
Compaq has a history of being a pain. They used to have special RAM-modules, so you had to purchase them from Compaq (guess, what happened to the price).
My mother has a Compaq laptop. She had trouble with it, so she asked me to help her ... Compaq does not like people with creative fingers. I could not get normal acces to the system.ini file. This is bad for a tweaker. It may save some novice some trouble, but then, how many novices go writing funny jokes in their system.ini file? And all in a sudden the graphics turned bad (low resolution/bit depth - I don't remember). I had done nothing to the laptop, that I had not already tried many a times on my own PC. The annoying part was, that my normal procedures could not get the resolution back. And yes, I blaim it on Compaq. I have serviced plenty of PCs, and this was just absurd.
Anyway, where I come from, only people who don't know, what they are dealing with buy Compaqs. After all, Compaq has a well developed PR system, and the big stores, that sell anything from discmans to refrigirators sell Compaq. They are on the other hand a rare find in the "computers only" shops.
My mother has a Compaq laptop. She had trouble with it, so she asked me to help her ... Compaq does not like people with creative fingers. I could not get normal acces to the system.ini file. This is bad for a tweaker. It may save some novice some trouble, but then, how many novices go writing funny jokes in their system.ini file? And all in a sudden the graphics turned bad (low resolution/bit depth - I don't remember). I had done nothing to the laptop, that I had not already tried many a times on my own PC. The annoying part was, that my normal procedures could not get the resolution back. And yes, I blaim it on Compaq. I have serviced plenty of PCs, and this was just absurd.
Anyway, where I come from, only people who don't know, what they are dealing with buy Compaqs. After all, Compaq has a well developed PR system, and the big stores, that sell anything from discmans to refrigirators sell Compaq. They are on the other hand a rare find in the "computers only" shops.
Again, I preface my interest with "oddly enough." Yes Compaq's reputation from the late eighties though the late nineties was that of producing machines that used proprietary parts, but Compaq doesn't have enough money to develop such things anymore.
These days under HP's whip, Compaq is being targeted as the high end line for laptops. The device uses all industry standard parts and seems to fit the bill. My main interest in it is that it is a fairly plain machine, with solid components. According to the tech people, the board is made by Intel, and it has a good video card and is built how I like.
Now, this doesn't mean that it works, nor does it mean that I'll actually stick with it. Only that I'm looking into it. I also tried the Compaq X1010 which is what they sold as a lower end (from today's perspective anyway) to the nx7000 and it didn't work in the slightest.
As always, I'll let you all know what I find.
Sam
These days under HP's whip, Compaq is being targeted as the high end line for laptops. The device uses all industry standard parts and seems to fit the bill. My main interest in it is that it is a fairly plain machine, with solid components. According to the tech people, the board is made by Intel, and it has a good video card and is built how I like.
Now, this doesn't mean that it works, nor does it mean that I'll actually stick with it. Only that I'm looking into it. I also tried the Compaq X1010 which is what they sold as a lower end (from today's perspective anyway) to the nx7000 and it didn't work in the slightest.
As always, I'll let you all know what I find.
Sam
-
Volkmar123
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany / Africa
The conclusion so far :
Pulsar / Magma CB2 / Notebook
is a special system, you can not talk about
unless you tried it out !
I had too much surprises !
As far as I know, only these people
have experience with this combination :
Sam / dehuzar (experience with more then 6 Systems)
Peace / dArKr3zIn (experience with 1 or 2 Systems)
Volkmar123 (experience with more then 6 systems)
Anybody else (Paul etc ?) having
Pulsar / Magma CB2 / Notebook
please give reports too !
you are welcome.
If you have experience just with notebooks / or pulsar, please make a test connected with the magma, before you recommend anything.
At the moment it seems older notebooks
(p1, p2,p3) make a better job in this combination,
then the nice new p4m or centrinos.
(I just tested a Dell Latitude D 600,
which did NOT work pretty good !)
So I still have not found what I am looking for...
Pulsar / Magma CB2 / Notebook
is a special system, you can not talk about
unless you tried it out !
I had too much surprises !
As far as I know, only these people
have experience with this combination :
Sam / dehuzar (experience with more then 6 Systems)
Peace / dArKr3zIn (experience with 1 or 2 Systems)
Volkmar123 (experience with more then 6 systems)
Anybody else (Paul etc ?) having
Pulsar / Magma CB2 / Notebook
please give reports too !
you are welcome.
If you have experience just with notebooks / or pulsar, please make a test connected with the magma, before you recommend anything.
At the moment it seems older notebooks
(p1, p2,p3) make a better job in this combination,
then the nice new p4m or centrinos.
(I just tested a Dell Latitude D 600,
which did NOT work pretty good !)
So I still have not found what I am looking for...
Well, after much headache and stress, I received my Magma back and decided to give it one more try. After all, do I REALLY NEED more than 24 tracks of ASIO? It seems as though I can open an STS-5000, 24 tracks of ASIO at 32bit/44.1kHz, and at least 1 MasterVerb Pro (I haven't been brave enough to test all combinations yet) and I was able to get some work done. Having been led to believe that I should be getting desktop performance with the laptop I now think that this is a misunderstanding.
But in truth, I think the limitations are very acceptable, as it will only require me to not be sloppy (which I shouldn't be anyway) and I'll have to learn how to utilize the SFP system more efficiently, and actually start using Cubase's bussing system (which I hear is light-years better in 2.0). With enough DSPs packed in the Magma, this is still quite a powerhouse rig. Instead of viewing my SFP system as an infinitely scalable studio system, I just have to think of it more like the worlds most diverse synthesizer with fantastic effects and a built in 24 (and maybe more when samplers are included... don't know how to properly gauge that yet) track mixer for recorded audio streams (with surround at that) and a 64 track mixer for DSP-based streams, cuz even with 21 DSPs I can't really use that many channels up, though when I trade my Pulsar II for a PowerPulsar (sometime in the distant future) I might get closer.
With that said, I think I AM going to keep the Dell. I still have until Tues to change my mind and I may yet change my mind, but the laptop --as a laptop, and not an audio desk-- does EVERYTHING I want... it is a bit expensive, but I've been a wreck trying to sift through dozens of laptop manuals and configurations out. While I might be able to find something cheaper, I seriously doubt I'll be able to find something BETTER.
Also I've been reminded how much music making is a vent for my stress, as I've been falling apart at the seams. So I'm going to start figuring out the limitations of this setup and work within that in the hopes that constraints lead to more creative workarounds and in the end a more unique musical result.
For those out on the prowl, I'd still recommend looking around for something cheaper than this, though the Dell's M60 has some nice looking promotions going on right now (f@#$ing bastards!!
) including a free Palm Zire.
Corey and Paul are talking to Germany to see what kind of hard numbers they can get on what CW has (un)officially tested, and I'd be happy to do any tests that people are interested so long as they are specific tasks. i.e. I don't want people asking me vague questions.
Also, if people have STS-x000 questions, I'm learning the STS series and I know nothing about samplers, so I'd be happy to do any tests in exchange for a quick and dirty tutorial on how to do what you're looking for.
You can feel free to email me privately and if you are in the US let me know in a private email (don't send me a private message on the Z as I just figured out that they exist and will probably not see it in time) and perhaps we can walk through it over the phone or something.
I fear that without guidance I may not provide good results as I've found myself to be quite stupid when using samplers that have even new-fangled workflow-based GUIs.
Hope that helps,
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2003-09-19 18:39 ]</font>
But in truth, I think the limitations are very acceptable, as it will only require me to not be sloppy (which I shouldn't be anyway) and I'll have to learn how to utilize the SFP system more efficiently, and actually start using Cubase's bussing system (which I hear is light-years better in 2.0). With enough DSPs packed in the Magma, this is still quite a powerhouse rig. Instead of viewing my SFP system as an infinitely scalable studio system, I just have to think of it more like the worlds most diverse synthesizer with fantastic effects and a built in 24 (and maybe more when samplers are included... don't know how to properly gauge that yet) track mixer for recorded audio streams (with surround at that) and a 64 track mixer for DSP-based streams, cuz even with 21 DSPs I can't really use that many channels up, though when I trade my Pulsar II for a PowerPulsar (sometime in the distant future) I might get closer.
With that said, I think I AM going to keep the Dell. I still have until Tues to change my mind and I may yet change my mind, but the laptop --as a laptop, and not an audio desk-- does EVERYTHING I want... it is a bit expensive, but I've been a wreck trying to sift through dozens of laptop manuals and configurations out. While I might be able to find something cheaper, I seriously doubt I'll be able to find something BETTER.
Also I've been reminded how much music making is a vent for my stress, as I've been falling apart at the seams. So I'm going to start figuring out the limitations of this setup and work within that in the hopes that constraints lead to more creative workarounds and in the end a more unique musical result.
For those out on the prowl, I'd still recommend looking around for something cheaper than this, though the Dell's M60 has some nice looking promotions going on right now (f@#$ing bastards!!
) including a free Palm Zire. Corey and Paul are talking to Germany to see what kind of hard numbers they can get on what CW has (un)officially tested, and I'd be happy to do any tests that people are interested so long as they are specific tasks. i.e. I don't want people asking me vague questions.
Also, if people have STS-x000 questions, I'm learning the STS series and I know nothing about samplers, so I'd be happy to do any tests in exchange for a quick and dirty tutorial on how to do what you're looking for.
You can feel free to email me privately and if you are in the US let me know in a private email (don't send me a private message on the Z as I just figured out that they exist and will probably not see it in time) and perhaps we can walk through it over the phone or something.
I fear that without guidance I may not provide good results as I've found myself to be quite stupid when using samplers that have even new-fangled workflow-based GUIs.
Hope that helps,
Sam
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dehuszar on 2003-09-19 18:39 ]</font>
Interesting post Sam.. I didn't know you were trying to do 24 asio channels (I thought it was just 24 audio tracks).. I find this limitation quite understandable. I use up to 10 or 12 asio on my poor little P3 Dell and it's fine, although it is much slicker with less channels (understandably). I think you have a perfectly working solution for most purposes. Magma's are really great, but they are not the same as having built-in PCI slots, and never will be.
As for tests, do you think you could do a ULLI test? I would like to know if you can manage the lowest latencies with this Dell of yours.
peace
As for tests, do you think you could do a ULLI test? I would like to know if you can manage the lowest latencies with this Dell of yours.
peace
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I can run as many DSP tracks as I have DSP for, I simply have limitations for reverbs and audio streams (i.e. ASIO/EASI/GIGA/STS/whathaveyou). Haven't seen any PCI overflows from Wave drivers, but I haven't really messed with that yet.
I've also found that using only 1 S/TDM cable improves bus reliability. I recall there being some back and forth as to whether multiple cables gave more internal routing options, and in the manual it shows several cables linking 2 cards, but I immediately got 4 more tracks of ASIO after taking one of them off.
I can only imagine it was confusing the card with errors of some kind and sending retries boggin down the bus. Pure speculation though. This rig is starting to grow on me now that I know what I've got. I am feeling much better about recommending this system to others, especially with the price drop on the M60. I wish all the best of luck.
It's time to make some music again.
Sam
I've also found that using only 1 S/TDM cable improves bus reliability. I recall there being some back and forth as to whether multiple cables gave more internal routing options, and in the manual it shows several cables linking 2 cards, but I immediately got 4 more tracks of ASIO after taking one of them off.
I can only imagine it was confusing the card with errors of some kind and sending retries boggin down the bus. Pure speculation though. This rig is starting to grow on me now that I know what I've got. I am feeling much better about recommending this system to others, especially with the price drop on the M60. I wish all the best of luck.
It's time to make some music again.
Sam
Okay... I've had a couple of days up and running, and holy shit! This is the life.
I just picked up some HR-824's along with the rest of the upgrades, my old PS-8's (which I'm technically borrowing) are now rear channels for a 4-channel surround setup.
I use the STM48S and I've been averaging around 26 tracks of ASIO, an STS-5000, and a MasterVerb Pro without breaking a sweat. I'm sure I can squeeze it harder, but I've been trying to get some work done, so I'll focus on more rigorous 'tests' if people need them or want to know more.
I just listened to Sigur Ros's Agaetis Byrjun with the Wave Source panned hard left and right, and at the center of front & back, so the stereo field hits you from both directions. F*cking shivers.
One quirk I'm trying to resolve is some 60 cycle hum. I checked my outlets and their all grounded, and my entire chain is balanced signal. The hum is only there when the laptop is plugged in, and has lessened since I ran the outs of the A16 through my Mackie 1402, before running the signal to the monitors. Chuck Brost @ Magma suggested that it might be the AC/DC brick for the laptop.
Not surprisingly he had a product to recommend made by a sister company to Magma called Juice. I think iGo is the name of the company. I'll do more research, but I think most people going the Magma route will come across this as laptops aren't designed with high-volume output in mind.
In so far as performance goes, I haven't had a single crash in mid-workflow, though Cubase won't let me reopen it after I've closed it. I think the dongle software got funky on me or something. But I'm running at 4ms and I've been able to have a full load of CubaseSX stuff record out into Sound Forge without any pops or clicks. And I'm working at 48kHz for now (as surround sound is the goal). It's usually the cross driver work that freaks out the bus and introduces noise and dropouts so this Dell is proving to be quite robust, now that I've got that damn 2nd S/TDM cable unplugged.
Those of you who were waiting. Stop.
Sam
I just picked up some HR-824's along with the rest of the upgrades, my old PS-8's (which I'm technically borrowing) are now rear channels for a 4-channel surround setup.
I use the STM48S and I've been averaging around 26 tracks of ASIO, an STS-5000, and a MasterVerb Pro without breaking a sweat. I'm sure I can squeeze it harder, but I've been trying to get some work done, so I'll focus on more rigorous 'tests' if people need them or want to know more.
I just listened to Sigur Ros's Agaetis Byrjun with the Wave Source panned hard left and right, and at the center of front & back, so the stereo field hits you from both directions. F*cking shivers.
One quirk I'm trying to resolve is some 60 cycle hum. I checked my outlets and their all grounded, and my entire chain is balanced signal. The hum is only there when the laptop is plugged in, and has lessened since I ran the outs of the A16 through my Mackie 1402, before running the signal to the monitors. Chuck Brost @ Magma suggested that it might be the AC/DC brick for the laptop.
Not surprisingly he had a product to recommend made by a sister company to Magma called Juice. I think iGo is the name of the company. I'll do more research, but I think most people going the Magma route will come across this as laptops aren't designed with high-volume output in mind.
In so far as performance goes, I haven't had a single crash in mid-workflow, though Cubase won't let me reopen it after I've closed it. I think the dongle software got funky on me or something. But I'm running at 4ms and I've been able to have a full load of CubaseSX stuff record out into Sound Forge without any pops or clicks. And I'm working at 48kHz for now (as surround sound is the goal). It's usually the cross driver work that freaks out the bus and introduces noise and dropouts so this Dell is proving to be quite robust, now that I've got that damn 2nd S/TDM cable unplugged.
Those of you who were waiting. Stop.
Sam
