Should I buy a MAC ??

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:02 am

As a long-time Logic user, similar dilemmas have creeped up on me. However, I think now is definitely the wrong time to change to Mac. That may change in the next 6 months to 1 year, but as for now I'm staying with 5.51 on PC. Here's why :

1. 5.51 works, and will work well right until a new Windows OS comes along (and it may even work after that!)

2. current mac's are toys. You really can't do much on them compared to a stupidly cheap AthlonXP 1800+ machine. On top of this, the reasonably fast dual macs are super noisy and generate a lot of heat.

3. They use PC133 SDRAM - laughably slow.

4. There's hardly any VST plugins for OSX right now, and you can't use them in Logic anyway. This wouldn't be so bad if there weren't even less AudioUnit plugins available.

5. OSX needs improvement. But I do acknowledge that it's a cool OS potentially and I really really really really wish they would port it to x86 platform.

6. There is no Pulsar/SFP for OSX!!!

7. Apple's approach is not future-proof. If you buy a PC, the hardware and software will still be usable on future computers. In Apple-land, this is not the case. This has constantly been proven in the past with switch to PowerPC, then the phasing out of floppy drives (nightmare for plugin customers), ADB ports (nightmare for anyone with a dongle), and now the OS.
Look at Wintel by comparison. I love the way a plugin written for win95 will still work perfectly in WindowsXP. Much as I hate Microsoft, I do admire this backward-compatibility approach from them.

---

Having said all this, I will probably still move to Mac in 1 or 2 years when/if they finally get some vaguely decent processors out, with ability to use decent RAM. My love for Logic is too great... Samplitude looked like an option for a while but I couldn't believe you couldn't create an empty MIDI object and start putting notes in. Anyway even if they improved Samplitude a lot, I would still miss the Emagic plugins, which I use far more than any others.

Anyway, I'm happy to wait 1 or 2 years. The platform I use now works great and will continue to do so. I think this urge to go Mac NOW is just down to upgrade fever - you see a few cool new features on the marketing blurb and feel you NEED IT NOW.

You DON'T : you only think you do, and it would be very sensible to wait until Logic 7 / Samplitude 9

Think what you do have now... upgrading the sequencer can be very annoying and hassle-prone... be happy in some ways that you don't have to do this now (well for a couple of years anyway)

by the way, I didn't want to upset any Mac people with my statements - just pointing out the facts as they appear to me.

peace

Tony B · Post by **Tony B** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:16 am

Well said. No BIAS

Men must be men. Emotion does not help PROGRESS nor MUSIC.

[ This Message was edited by: abre on 2003-03-08 06:17 ]

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 6:35 pm

Wohoo. A platform war. And i was away for a few days and almost missed it.

1. Macs don't use 133 mHz sdram anymore.They use DDR RAM like PC:s.
2.Macs are toys? They might or might not be as fast as a Athlon 1800 (altough i think they are). They are more expensive than Athlons that's for sure but that don't make them toys. Just expensive computers.

Anyways, there was a really clever guy over at kvr-vst who stated something like :
I use PC:s by choice 'cause i am more familiar with them. If i had chosen to get a Mac i would still make exactly the same music as i do today. So what's the point of all this?

BTW i use both. Pc:s and Mac:s. If you say that one is simply better than the other you are just being ignorant. End of story.

[ This Message was edited by: jupiter8 on 2003-03-08 18:36 ]

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:52 am

The first point of this is that if you are in quest of pure power, then PC is ahead at this precise moment 9 March 2003.

The second point is that if you're in quest of the best performance/price ratio, then PC is ahead, at this same moment.

The third point is that if you're in quest of reliability, then there is no great difference between the both platforms; it seems that you can have it on both, depending on your soft and hard configuration. In the both you have to search for the good one, and there are issues to solve in the both.

BlackSun · Post by **BlackSun** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 5:17 am

On 2003-03-08 06:16, abre wrote:
Well said. No BIAS
Men must be men. Emotion does not help PROGRESS nor MUSIC.

[ This Message was edited by: abre on 2003-03-08 06:17 ]

All my music is powered by emotion

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 6:33 am

On 2003-03-08 18:35, jupiter8 wrote:
Wohoo. A platform war. And i was away for a few days and almost missed it.

1. Macs don't use 133 mHz sdram anymore.They use DDR RAM like PC:s.
2.Macs are toys? They might or might not be as fast as a Athlon 1800 (altough i think they are). They are more expensive than Athlons that's for sure but that don't make them toys. Just expensive computers.

1. ok, I just checked out the specs of the new macs and it seems that they have indeed gone DDR... about time!

2. I stand by my statement. The issue here is not which machine is necessarily better.. (there *are* other important factors in choosing a computer than just raw speed, I admit) my point was that unless you had a really slow PC before the mac, it would definitely seem like a downgrade in power.

This is a very real concept for most PC Logic users. And please, it's not worth trying to convince me that the mac is more powerful in terms of native DSP power.. even on the Logic beta forum the mac guys had to admit defeat, in Spectral Gate/Platverb tests, as well as EXS24 voice tests.

Anyway, as I said in my original post, I didn't want to upset any mac users... perhaps using the word 'toy' to describe it is a little harsh.

peace

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:36 pm

I'm not about to promote one or the other architecture, too.
All those observations are right to a certain degree and there's a difference of the 'felt power' of the machine opposed to it's technical potential.
The CPU's of the Macs are superior from their design (found by the experts of the ETH in Zurich), but with a lack of well coded, optimized apps that's pure nonsense.
Those who still remember Ataris, Amigas and first generation Macs (running from 8-33 MHZ) should know the difference.
Imagine your old apps (at current clock rates) running 50-100 times faster with 20 times more Ram, wouldn't it be perfect ?
I'm not to argue to turn back time, but it shows that quality developement has been given up in favour to 'any sh*t runs anyway at that clock rate...'
Apple seems to have given up their solid way of doing things just for the GHZ hype. People look at numbers but not at the overall amount of time and money it takes to get a job done.
It's often faster to work at a slower speed but proceed continuously. Everyone knows things only fail just before deadline.

cheers, Tom

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:03 pm

On 2003-03-09 13:36, astroman wrote:
....
Everyone knows things only fail just before deadline.

cheers, Tom

A little comment on what I understand about this assertion...

With Win 98, the crash happens far before the deadline, so you always have to stand far below that for having a reliable behaviour of the total system. Therefore, you can't use the total power of the system.

With Windows XP (like with BeOS), you can stay at a 100% use of the CPU without crashing. And you can select the priority of each process, so the most important process will be less affected by a 100% use of the CPU.

Regards,
Grok

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 8:17 pm

On 2003-03-08 18:35, jupiter8 wrote:
Wohoo. A platform war. And i was away for a few days and almost missed it.

1. Macs don't use 133 mHz sdram anymore.They use DDR RAM like PC:s.
...
[ This Message was edited by: jupiter8 on 2003-03-08 18:36 ]

Too late! Now PC uses DDR Ram with Dual Channel that double the Ram Bandwith, allowing better performances (better latencies, better Ram bandwith) than with the too expensive Rambus...

So actually we see the Mac trying to follow the PCs performances, but never preceding

Post by **hubird** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:13 pm

Wise words, Astro, and as always accomplished by accurate tech info.
Thanks.

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:11 am

On 2003-03-09 06:33, dArKr3zIn wrote:
(...)
...even on the Logic beta forum the mac guys had to admit defeat, in Spectral Gate/Platverb tests, as well as EXS24 voice tests.
(...)

Can you give us the link?

Thanks

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:21 am

no, sorry, it was all conducted on the Logic beta group, which is not public.

The following link says it all, though. It doesn't seem like there's too many mac users wanting to come forward with their results.

http://www.digitalnaturalsound.com/logi ... lap5.shtml

peace

samplaire · Post by **samplaire** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:14 am

hmm... but....aaaaaa...... does our life depend on the fact we are on Mac or PC? Who is better musician - a Macer or PCer? Hmmm...

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:24 pm

On 2003-03-10 09:14, samplaire wrote:
hmm... but....aaaaaa...... does our life depend on the fact we are on Mac or PC? Who is better musician - a Macer or PCer? Hmmm...

A little bit, yes...A tool is a tool, it has to be convenient for the use you want...Who is the better guitarist, the one who get a very good guitar, or the one who get a very bad one? Maybe the both are very good, but there is one who have better chances to be heard and appreciated...

A computer is not only a musical instrument, it also allows to produce music, so there are many things to consider, the individual musical talent is not the real question there...

A good tool can make your life easier...An inaccurate tool can make your life a hell...

If you want to stay a pure musician, don't buy a computer; play violin or others instruments instead...In this case, your only work will be to practice a lot and improve your knowledge of your instrument and your ability...We're not exactly in this topic...

If you want to produce recorded musics, then a computer based DAW is obviously a tool that you could need; therefore you will be facing the choice of the best machine for suiting your needs...Then, your life will depend on the computer you choose...

Cheers,
Grok

_________________
Toujours l'Amour!

[ This Message was edited by: Grok on 2003-03-11 02:35 ]

Post by **garyb** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:55 pm

funny how some of the world's simplest instruments have the greatest range of expression(tabla,erhu,violin,vina) and the most complicated........sometimes...

BlackSun · Post by **BlackSun** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:46 pm

Sorry 4 start this plattform war!!!
This was planned as a Logic - SX war

Anyway, I´m back 2 logic 5

, and lets see, maybe on MAC in the future...........

Grok · Post by **Grok** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:53 am

IMO there's no platform war, but only the question a potential user asks to himself: "Where am I going to put my money?"

The choice is not an easy one!

AEP · Post by **AEP** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:55 am

Grok, i love you man.............

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:18 pm

Macs are good computers. I have a fast Pentium 4 and I'd be happy with a computer that was only 2/3s as fast.

I mean, sadly I'm starting to realize that now I'm limited by my own musical talent not my hardware.

That said price is really important. With all the other things to buy like software, pulsar cards, midi keyboards etc I'd rather have a cheap computer that does the job and a nice keyboard to play than an expensive Mac and a cheap keyboard.

Macs just don't have anything to recommend them.

pwabixcpp · Post by **pwabixcpp** » Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:54 pm

I using Mac for at last 10 years, so I have really expirience about Mac. I also changed about 5 mac's and invested about 16 to -18 000 $ on this gear,but my investment was good when I see How much money they brought to me.
Situation is like this:

SFP platform is not programmed to native Mac language that's why it don't overperform the PC platform for now, but I just waiting for that OSX version that will rock by stability and performance if Creamware decide to make it on native code? So PC is now good with XP pro, yes after all those years of wind. 98 what was nightmare for all of us. And yes we used Mac all those years without any major problems ( all software sometimes have bugs until they fix them).
Next thing after pro tools that don't use pci bus to work at all, this platform is made to use heavyly PCI bus and even native CPU power. The best solutions are coming soon in technical way like Nividia GeForce 4 Titanium for mac that have it's own GPU and don't use the CPU to render graphics ,that's mean PCI bus without traffic anymore,finally vu meters on SFP will work fast even in heavy loaded projects.For now upgrade to dual 1Ghz from PowerLogix costs about 900 $,and have the same performance like the new Mac G4. For me that's mean faster mac about four times more at 900$.
And all about this digital things 48Khz or even 192Khz they are not even close to analog recording in audio quality except the DSD technology that is really finally very close to analog.Do you want quality of Studer tape for a less money ,no problem Genex 48 track DSD machine is out so I think we will use it ......
Linear recording on 120 Db Dynamic...practically 2.8Mhz or 5.2Mhz sampling rate ,that is what we waited for all those years of Industry used our patience and money. Yes we were used practically on our no-knowledge about this.
48 khz have every next sample after 22.5 microseconds and some people can hear differences on 5 to 3 microseconds sound changes in clicks, even 192 khz sampling have new data every 5.2 microseconds....That space between is not recorded at all. Is it worth of recording of anything? Analog is still superior after all.
So we believe that our costumers will not ask about the quality of recordings in our studios,hmmmm ............