scope 4.5

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:12 am

it's what makes Planetz a nice place to be at...

What Hubird? Defending CWA's every step? If so, that's just not the way it should be.

They've produced some *amazing* hard & software, but they haven't met a lot of people's wishes yet (or so I gather from reading posts on Z).

On top of the community's SFP wishlist of bugfixes, there's also the lack of developement for Noah. I know they have Vectron & P5 in the wings, but Noah deserves more. (hence my previous questions about a Noah SDK, which were mocked by a few people)

All is not lost anyway, better late than never as they say...

I must add that I agree & empathise with Stardust's disgruntlement regarding the issue of expensive software being de-valued by a quick financial fix bundle release... & for what? A few xtra quid brought in from a carrot dressed up as an aubergine

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: Shroomz on 2005-12-01 08:13 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:18 am

On 2005-12-01 07:13, Shroomz wrote:
Although, I must say that choosing your words carefully around here in order to avoid or start a barny is an artform itself.

Here and in every other forum on the internet mate

I think the main thing is to keep a sense of perspective as to what this forum is, and what reaction your post might get. This isn't an official Creamware forum. Complaining here is not going to get anything done. On top of that, the whining or aggressive nature of most of the complaints just riles people who want to have a positive experience that helps their creativity.

Because there are many people who, instead of getting negative and pissed off about bugs, work around them if they appreciate the hardware. If you don't feel this is satisfactory, then do the following:

1. Email Creamware.
2. If they don't respond, check you've mailed the correct address and send it again.
3. Repeat if necessary.
4. If your mails get blocked, get another email address (it's not that hard) and start again at step 1.
5. If you still do not get any result and you're not happy, sell the card or put it in an old computer and use it for routing and effects/synths. Move on... life is too short to be that pissed off about something and to be waiting for a fix that might not arrive.

Apart from anything else, whenever CW people do come here, do you think they're going to be able to look through multiple pages of noisy posts and get any constructive feedback out of it?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:38 am

On 2005-12-01 07:13, Shroomz wrote:
I see absolutely no reason why people shouldn't be able to voice the opinion that they'd rather see bug fixes than a new bundle, without mindless defense of the platform. Why defend the platform & debate the worthiness of fixing certain bugs people have encountered. ...

neither do I, but I can't help the impression that this 'event' was used by those who prefere a fix contra a bundle for a 'not so friendly way' to publish their opinion.

They feel entitled to use strong language themselves, but feel p*ssed by something that may be considered a sharp form of irony at best - you're from Britain and probably know what I mean

If I come over as someone who 'defends' a company or it's policy, then sorry - I don't even blame it on my humble tech-literature-influenced english.
It seems that some people read only what they want to read.

I make my living in a similiar part of the industry as CWA and it would be ridiculuous to deny 20 years of experience.
I've been involved in some pretty leading egde stuff and even had to program some of that sh*t myself.

This doesn't make my opinions the right ones by default, but I may have some background about facts that a 'regular' user simply wouldn't consider.

I share some of this because it might be helpful to complete the picture of a certain situation, not because I'm after the applause.

If I have the intention to convince people I do exactly that, but that's happening face-to-face and is (usually) based on a contract paid by the hour

cheers, Tom

TripACT · Post by **TripACT** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:10 am

astro-man, thinking of it now, i might have used some other words instead of words like "pathetic" in my first reply in this thread.

But my real intention was telling how it looks from my side. CWA were a huge empire long ago. Nowdays this company isnt as it was and therefor the new 'releases' arn't impressive. You know that people can buy at any time those packages by themselvs

Of course nobody attaches guns to our heads and forces us to buy this upgrade

I just would like to see seperate type of releases, which is Software update and new attractive package releases.. Because the way its being shown it may confuse others.

I think enough said.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:38 am

On 2005-12-01 10:10, TripACT wrote:
... CWA were a huge empire long ago. Nowdays this company isnt as it was and therefor the new 'releases' arn't impressive. You know that people can buy at any time those packages by themselvs ...

well, they were not bad in spreading a bigger impression of the company than there really was

A legitimate business move and by no way uncommon, particular in the years CWA started to grow...
We could start argueing about what might have been appropriate, which is of course nonsense as time has passed anyway and we're not in the position to be acting, nor have we ever been responsible.
That makes a huge difference - afterwards it's always easy to be right.
I'll make an exception for one single reason - see bottomline.

CWA made 2 crucial mistakes in the very early process of developing the system:
they attacked ProTools - positioning Scope as a replacement
they neglected the Mac developement, underestimating the importance of the Mac market for 'professional' image.

whatever changed their market then - they did get into the economic trouble and couldn't afford their core developement crew any longer. Wages are awefully high in Germany and the first thing any bank account manager will ask (to reduce costs) is how many employes could be set free.
While this s*cks morally, it's even worse in highly knowledge dependend enterprises. It usually means the death of the company.

Under these circumstances it's a small miracle that they were able to keep business up at all (even with those annoyances) and release the ASB boxes. My respect to the company.

Many people do not know that it's 100 times more difficult to edit/recompile parts of an existing system, than to rewrite the routines.
Theory with version control software etc is often 180 degree away from reality facts - in small companies, under high pressure in schedule and budget.

The rewrite would only work in a larger context, but if you cannot afford the staff then you don't even have to consider it as an option. It's not as simple as it may seem at first glance.

CWA has the 'fun' (or technical challenge) to sit between all chairs.
The card has to deal with the mobo's hardware and the software is a 4 tier mix of low level hardware interface, OS integration, application control and DSP code execution.

I bet that 90% of the registered users here do not have the slightest idea what that means for a system designer - who then is confronted with the task (there must be an icing on the cake...) to keep it cross platform compatible over 3 different operating systems, 2 hardware interface where not even the byte order is identical and then after all is supposed to port the whole mess into a completely different world of processing (be it Linux or OSX...).

Those are the facts, and it's those engineers who at least try to keep the thing going that I sometimes speak for. I think I have a realistic picture of what they have to go through and don't wanna trade with them - under no circumstances

and of course those bundles consist (as usual) from stuff that isn't exactly a best seller anymore - for whatever reason.
but that's something everyone with a little common sense knows right from the beginning.
One doesn't need to mention it just to spoil the party ...adressing those who consider me blind on both eyes

cheers, Tom

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-12-01 11:43 ]

jea · Post by **jea** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:30 pm

@ astroman:

Well, CWA have choices, really they have.

They could make the cards work in a dedicated pc, with network connection.

Then they could make the frontend (gui) like a remote for the dedicated pc (as vsti's on the "host" pc).

This way the dedicated pc could be whatever CW wanted it to be.

There are many options, really there are.

I'm sure Max @ fx-teleport, could do this, or apulsoft wormhole, then it would be compatible with macs too.

Making remotecontrol work is a lot easier than fixing drivers in different systems, and softs too.....

TripACT · Post by **TripACT** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:34 pm

astroman, well written.

what can i say? well yeah - it is true and sad.

_________________

[ This Message was edited by: TripACT on 2005-12-01 12:35 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:43 pm

jea - Those magic solutions have latency. Therefore much of the coolness of Scope is rendered useless.

You can already do exactly what you want - you just need a few ins and outs (ADAT lightpipe is very easy for this kind of thing), MIDI I/O and an old computer you can pick up for next to nothing. You can set up MIDI CCs so you can remote control your devices. You keep zero latency that way. You have in your machine something that goes beyond anything the VST world can offer. Block-based processing is *limited and creatively limiting*.

What's this weird fascination with VST integration? My favourite synths (Roland MKS80 and Studio Electronics SE1) don't have VST front ends and firewire/network linkup.

Oh shit, I'm falling behind the times... better throw out those useless, out-of-fashion synths and get what Future Music says is the next-big-thing!

Sorry for the sarcasm but I just can't believe some of the pathetic whining crap I'm reading here in the last few days.

You have the power to help yourselves. I suggest unplugging the internet, throwing out the music tech mags and making some f**king music instead.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-12-01 12:43 ]

jea · Post by **jea** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:15 pm

@ darkrezin:

Yes, I know it have latency, so does anything involving any device, analog or digital .....

I will work with what is working the best.

So far no I have to exclude the scopecards

I have here:

1 Scope Pro, 2x Scope Project, 2x Pulsar 1, 1x Scope Home, 1x TripleDat ISA ....

And plugins Galore!!!!

I have 4x UAD-1, all plugins.

I have TC PowerCore FireWire with all plugins existing for PowerCore except X5, which I *really hate the sound of*.

1x TC PowerCore mkII PCI.

I use Nuendo 3.2.

And lots of vsti's.

And NO cracked soft, not at all in the studiopc's.

I have bought 3x AMD X2 4400+ with Gigabyte K8NS Ultra-939, each have 2GB ram.

1x Magma 7 slot chassi.

RME Soundcards, Motu 828, Motu 828mkII.

Need I say more?

I only need it to function, and I use VST.

On 2005-12-01 12:43, darkrezin wrote:
jea - Those magic solutions have latency. Therefore much of the coolness of Scope is rendered useless.

You can already do exactly what you want - you just need a few ins and outs (ADAT lightpipe is very easy for this kind of thing), MIDI I/O and an old computer you can pick up for next to nothing. You can set up MIDI CCs so you can remote control your devices. You keep zero latency that way. You have in your machine something that goes beyond anything the VST world can offer. Block-based processing is *limited and creatively limiting*.

What's this weird fascination with VST integration? My favourite synths (Roland MKS80 and Studio Electronics SE1) don't have VST front ends and firewire/network linkup.

Oh shit, I'm falling behind the times... better throw out those useless, out-of-fashion synths and get what Future Music says is the next-big-thing!

Sorry for the sarcasm but I just can't believe some of the pathetic whining crap I'm reading here in the last few days.

You have the power to help yourselves. I suggest unplugging the internet, throwing out the music tech mags and making some f**king music instead.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-12-01 12:43 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:31 pm

On 2005-12-01 12:30, jea wrote:
Well, CWA have choices, really they have.
They could make the cards work in a dedicated pc, with network connection.
Then they could make the frontend (gui) like a remote for the dedicated pc (as vsti's on the "host" pc)...

well, no offence - but are you really unaware of the result of that procedure ?

Of course you can remote control the box - I've done this even from a 80 MHZ Powermac from the pre-PCI era (just to prove it could be done - and it was installed in less than 10 minutes)

But the Scope software's GUI is still executed on the target machine - it has to, as there's no other way to control the processing parameters.
let's just ignore the network delay for simplicity.

You do not get it any more responsive this way, for that purpose a complete rewrite of the GUI applies.
This is a much 'simpler' task today (if you want to keep it cross platform) as only XP/2K and MacOSX have to be considered, featuring identical graphic processors etc...

BUT... then you'd have to go below the surface
and 2 scenarios apply
CWA has the right and source of the content that's build in wxwidgets
they do not and use an object library

the 2nd option is the most simple - we can safely forget about it.
Redesign, data modelling and implementation are no less than 10 to 20 man years.
Not only unaffordable, but also senseless as the time to market is simply too long

But even with a complete documentation a re-implementation would hardly be possible below 5 man years with extremely skilled staff. If they'd be lucky enough to find the persons in question, they'd hardly be able to pay them.

Let's assume a partial optimization as the big 'solutions' won't work.
In that case you'd have to reveal system details to people you probably know just a couple of months.
Who's guaranteeing their loyality ?
Enter a company, suck up all you can get, drop off and start your own business - that's how the music plays today.
Even in India beginners of an IT job have to lay down a horrendous 'safety fee' that's lost when the applicant leaves within (say) the first year.

that's about options...

cheers, Tom
ps: I've bought a TUSL2-c recently and run my 2 Pulsars under 98se, flawless - just as you mentioned, and I'd connect it via Adat (as Darkrezin suggested) to a more recent box if I ever get the need.

[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-12-01 13:33 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:33 pm

jea - I guess you already made your choices, to banish cables from your setup. You're not the only one who's doing this. And quite frankly I welcome it if it introduces more cool analog gear onto the 2nd hand market so that I can pick it up

I'm not dissing the stuff you have but I'd personally take cable-hell over that setup any day. Yes, everything has some latency but the latency in block-based systems, and the method of processing those block chunks instead of sample-by-sample DSP or *continuously* in the analog domain, is something I can never accept for a serious production environment. What it means to me is clicks and pops when running DSP-based VST accelerators at low block sizes (64 samples for example). I also find the sound of native mixing engines flat and dimensionless.

Each to their own, of course. Looking at the gear you have, I'd sincerely advise you to sell the CW cards, otherwise put them in a second machine connected via audio and MIDI connections.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-12-01 13:33 ]

Post by **Guest** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:42 pm

CWA is doomed if it does and doomed if does not.
no matter what CWA does. It ain't F*****g right for some.

For Some CWA F**k up by calling it an upgrade. I can forgive them and I will call it something else in my mind as I update my pulsar 1 card with the latest devices for 98 Euro. They called it4.5 and not 5.0, as garyb said in another post, for the very reason that no bugfixes in this version.

This so called update is purely a "commerical" one so early next year the new Scope box will include new added plugins software to maintain its value and be attractive to new customers.

in the same token so the rest of the flock does not feel F**ked by CreamWare "new" repackaging for 2006. They offered the 98 Euro software update for every registered user if they chose to go that route.

CWA according to some F**k up big time and reached out to their oldest and most loyal pulsar users and gave them an offer no one with a 1/2 ass brain can refuse (to get the devices the new Scope guys will have in 2006 since many offers has passed them in the old years.

As Astro mentioned and other "loyal creamware users" this is not the end of the world. 2 days ago you were using the Scope and now you are mighty pissed that your SCOPE does not do what you want to do with it eventhough scope was not intended to do those things as a Pro card. Astro mentioned these. If people like Mr Zimmer can produce music using many many Scope cards, that alone is enough for me to know Scope got something other cards don't.

bugfixes driver updates etc.....

these are the things cwa may not be able to touch until they get back on their feet.
having to pay a group of people to work on fixes to allow me to play a game or watch movie maybe a costly investment right now.
I am not pointing at anyone. figure of speech.

With the ASB release CWA will get some cash flow/pay the bank/make new products/then look back and improve if it is a wise thing to do.

some with background in programming may understand what is involved here. OSX may be impossible for Scope. It may be more than a simple driver update. Otherwise it would have been out. ASB are released with OSX. so they got to be a bigger and more complex issue with SCOPE software than drivers only . We don't know. CWA ain't saying anything.
again 3 different version of OSX so far. Imagine they release for the first one version and then you updated then you would demand another and another. Where the cash flow would come for them at this time.

many company went under and many more were bought and re-bought. CreamWare stayed. Tough German mentality. I respect that.
they refused to die or have their beloved Platform in the hand of other major companies.

this was supposed to be a LIMITED time update for old users in X-mas time at a merely 98 EURO --the price of 1/2 a device.

If this is for money CWA would have created another Pack and priced Euro 399 Euro and many will flock to buy it.

When 4.0 was released CWA was critisized a lot by unhappy users. I won't say sell it and go buy another platform but try not to SPOIL it for the rest. I mean your scope can still work right?

There are more than 4 or 5 discussions going at the same time. However if this 98 euro thing does not fit your need. no need to use harsh language.
Those defending CWA don't work and are not paid by CWA to come here and give you facts on life and business. They know how it is OUT there.

So I ask of you to chill out and let those guys who paid lots of money for their Scope 1 and Pulsar 1 to enjoy this thing-- so I don't call it an update---

[ This Message was edited by: antar on 2005-12-01 14:07 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:57 pm

The thing that amazes me is that people don't seem to appreciate what they have. A CW DSP system is the only real alternative to something like a Pro Tools TDM rig. A TDM rig is undoubtedly great IMHO... some great plugins (and even more mediocre ones incidentally). The major difference is the integrated (and superb) sequencing/recording/editing software. However there's things that are possible in Scope which aren't possible even on TDM (modular unlimited routing, dynamic DSP re-allocation).

I can't believe people whine about it. Look at Digidesign. People with Mix and MixPlus systems paid a f**k of a lot more money than a CW user ever will. And yet they are abandoned by Digi now. The world is a cold, hard place. It does not revolve around you and your sound cards. There's people dying around the world just so we can sit in our warm cosy rooms with our computers and soundcards. And yet people whine. I find this incomprehensible.

Be grateful that you have a tool in your hands that can do what it does, and be happy that CW did not continually revise the hardware and abandon backward-compatibility. And if you're not happy there are solutions (see a few of my recent posts... can't be arsed to repeat yet again).

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:23 pm

I think it's good to stay open minded enough to respect the questions, comments, suggestions & critisisms of everyone. Language barriers lead to a lot of misunderstandings on Z & I suspect that although some people may be 'whining' or complaining, others are merely struggling a little with english, which ultimately will lead them to be missunderstood.

I'm not complaining about SFP at all. I think it's a wonderfull flexible enviroment & surely one of the best. I'm in no way having a pop at CWA, just pointing out that defense for defenses' sake sucks big fat donkey balls in itself.

craighuddy · Post by **craighuddy** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:39 pm

Well I for one am happy with the bundles and I have paid to "upgrade" to 4.5

Although I am happy about the deal, I think in 3 years they could have fixed a couple of bugs in the driver and scope to go along with this.

I don't think you can really call adding a few plug ins a point release. When no funtionality to the core of scope has been added( that couldn't have been added by adding a couple of plugs) The guys that had all these devices did not say they were on 4.1 or 4.2. Creamware selling a bundle of plugs with the same old scope does not a point release make IMO.

But I am happy they have not forgotten us totally ,in favor of the emulator boxes, which I would never buy either BTW

CH

jea · Post by **jea** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:46 pm

Hi folks,

by controlling the remote I meant it could be done by just having the gui on the host, sending something simple as midi to the dedicated machine..... after all midi learn works since the very beginning.

And the means of connecting things, ADAT do have jitter etc, always!

And I would like to separate the effects from the synths, using the effects in XTC mode .....

I can live with anything, but I will miss SPL stuff.

So why can't this be done in a proper manner?

Post by **hubird** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:15 pm

Guys, I'm so-ho happy that CWA is still alife...

Imagine how we would feel if we were working on a song whyle knowing every devellopment of the platform was ended...
Every move of CWA is intended to generate mony, and they will get mony from it, that's for sure.
This offer will address almost everyone with any Scope system, I don't know the userbase numbers but a 20.000 times € 100,- makes a nice number already.
We all will benefit from that, in the next future

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:37 am

That's the spirit Hubird

Had time to sleep on this & in actual fact there absolutely *must* be something we're missing, or should I say something which Creamware aren't telling, either because it's a secret or because it would be stating the obvious. So to state the obvious, here's a few facts :

> The ASB boxes run on new 200 Mhz Sharcs.

> We believe there will be a new generation Scope at some point 'soon'.

> CWA recently stated that they had SFP running on new gen' Sharcs

> They have ported their new Pro-12 which was designed for ASB ... to Scope !

> They have apparently released a 'bundle' as an OS upgrade naming it Scope 4.5.

Reading between the lines & filling in the missing pieces just a little, it may well be that this is indeed the first release of a new framework designed to accomodate the next generation.

At the very least if there are actually no changes or updates to the OS, then CWA must be doing the groundwork, laying the foundations of what's to follow by adjusting their packages to suit some new model they've devised. These details they will certainly not make public, so it's anyone's guess really.

Bottom line is that I think CWA thought they could kill 2 birds with one stone: Make 50,000 to 100,000 Euros to pay bills for further ASB developement & give a whole bunch of Scope users a X-mas present of a bundle deal at the same time.

Looking at the big picture it is quite confusing as to what's actually going on & one thing in particular which I don't really understand is that it seems that this deal only applies if you currently own S&S pack or M&M pack. ?
Not sure at the moment, but that's how it reads. I may be mistaken though.

Post by **hubird** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:17 am

On 2005-12-02 02:37, Shroomz wrote:
which I don't really understand is that it seems that this deal only applies if you currently own S&S pack or M&M pack. ?
Not sure at the moment, but that's how it reads. I may be mistaken though.

Well, be happy because you don't have to have SnS or MnM to profit from the offer along that side, according to the latest reports

Agree with your analysis btw, the signs are promising.
And multiply your estimation of revenues by 10 to 50...almost every SFP user will upgrade sooner or later (except Stardust who has all plugs

!

CWA now has two mony streams:
one slow but consistent stream from the ASB line
and one fast explosive stream during next two months.

Meaning: they can invest immediately (in programmers for example), and there is some garantee to keep things going then.
Does this sound positive or does it sound positive

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-12-02 06:18 ]

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:37 am

There is hope Stardust

Hubird, this is how it is for our studio :

> We own S&S and M&M packs.

> We own a Noah with all software available.

> We've been waiting for the Prophet on Noah.

> We will wait for Pro-12 on Noah.

> We won't upgrade to get the SBC devious.

> We will upgrade a luna card to 4.5 just to check it out (on a test system)

that about sums it up I think