CW future?

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am

I have lately remarked that the big mail-order shops haven´t CW in the catalogues anymore. My local dealers don´t have CW on stock anymore either.
The last article in an major Synth/Keyboard/Music magazine was some time ago. At least that´s what I experience in Germany.

What do you think?

[ This Message was edited by: Rogurt on 2004-10-19 08:41 ]

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:16 am

Unless they put out some new hardware (read firewire cards

) they are down to disapear slowly.

Maybe really slowly, but still... Just to bad, cuz nothing can compare to cw synths and 3rd party offers, and cw flexibility right now

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:20 am

Unless they put out some new hardware (read firewire cards

) they are down to disapear slowly.

Maybe really slowly, but still... Just to bad, cuz nothing can compare to cw synths and 3rd party offers, and cw flexibility right now

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:59 am

Cubase SX 3 has now the capability of inserting hardware routed external effects. Latency is almost not hearable anymore (even when inserts stacked and with realtime monitoring). So some of the most important arguments pro CW got lost.

The handling and the quality of the devices is left as pros. But look at almost any other software´s handling when combined with houston / mackie control / logic control. I have never heared or read about someone with a simiar setup in SFP. Sure many Posts discuss the possibility of controling ... via midi. BUT: noone has ever stated that a total control motorized setup worked. Not even CW did mention more than "u can control things via midi..." but that doesn´t tell me if I can have a motorfader setup (with only 128 step midi resolution anyway).

In my opinion the whole CW politics misses a point. Too expensive as mass product for "I just wanna fumble with some music stuff" people (because cracked software costs nothing and on e-bay very few bucks). And too poorly maintained in handling issues etc. when adressing pros /semi-pros. Yes - the routing window is unique. But that´s about it for 7 or 8 years now.

[ This Message was edited by: Rogurt on 2004-10-19 09:01 ]

krizrox · Post by **krizrox** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:01 am

Can't speak for Europe but CW stuff is still available through Guitar Center & Musicians Friend over here in the States (mail order only as far as I know). I haven't seen a CW product sitting on an actual shelf in many years.

I usually try to preach the gospel according to CW whenever I can. If we actively promote their products, other people will pay attention.

I don't know. Whatever.

Rogurt · Post by **Rogurt** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:03 am

Yes CW stuff is available on demand. But shops don´t advertise them anymore...

Post by **hubird** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:28 am

you're from Munich?
In the German Keyboards of october, news from market, page 15, they make mention of the 'new' Profit5, including a fotograph of 10 to 5 cm.

There IS not much news these days, and CWA is a small company, so it's normal, even on planetz it's relatively quiet

We have to wait for the firewire box (right Marcuspocus

)and OS-X support to see the magazins swell

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:41 am

yep, CWA is very small now, smaller than before so it's not a surprise they don't make the news too often. I'm sure CWA knows they will have to do something about their ageing hardware at some point. The most logical thing indeed would be a firewire box, and hopefully work is already underway on a product like that. In the meantime, they'll probably keep releasing plugins every few months too...

Basic Pitch · Post by **Basic Pitch** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:50 am

Wassnt Noah supposed to be the firewire CW solution?

Obviously a fiwi SFP setup just like the PCI cards would be alot more powerfull than Noah, but judging by the results of the Noah synth, I am not to sure we will be seeing an SFP fiwi unit im affraid..

Honestly at this point I do not know what CW can do to keep themselfs in the game, especially seeing as units like TC now have major 3rd party support and are developing DSP synths, and UAD cards have such good qualioty effects at such low price points.

Then couple in the fact that native synths and effects are getting better and better by the day, I am really not sure what will happen to our platform of choice in the future...

Cheers!

Post by **garyb** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:22 pm

there is NOTHING to compare with this system, still! i just installed a system yesterday in the computer of a guy who's used ALL that other crap and boy, was he amazed! those using scope often become jaded and since it works well, it's natural to want more.....

if not for the demise of the pci bus, there would be NO need for another product.

geeez, consumers......
most companies that make something good don't need to keep making new products(like the old car makers peugeot and saab used to do). this endless new product thing is great for the gadget junkie and mindless consumer, but it's not really helpful for one just wanting to work. those of us who used hardware and tape machines only 5-10 years ago, know a good thing now.....

the real problem is one of perception.

a new product WILL be nessesary because of the end of pci. i only hope that the old system is compatible. (and mackie/houston control or similar IS kinda a must....)

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 2:44 pm

I'm not too concerned... As GaryB says if your gear is working fine now why worry ?

When CWA do release their new hardware it will (should!) have the advantage of being backwards-compatible with the *HUGE* existing catalog of devices. That will make it a very appealing option for people.

Opening up the SDK should also help the platform.

dubcotics · Post by **dubcotics** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:59 pm

Hi
Hey I can still make music with Scope, has anybody ever turned up with an album made entirely with SCOPE!!?? NO!! with TC core!!?? NO!! with what ever you name NOOOO!!! So what's the big deal if SCOPE is getting old, cheers mate enjoy making music***

dubcotics · Post by **dubcotics** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:59 pm

Hi
Hey I can still make music with Scope, has anybody ever turned up with an album made entirely with SCOPE!!?? NO!! with TC core!!?? NO!! with what ever you name NOOOO!!! So what's the big deal if SCOPE is getting old, cheers mate enjoy making music***

dubcotics · Post by **dubcotics** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:59 pm

Hi
Hey I can still make music with Scope, has anybody ever turned up with an album made entirely with SCOPE!!?? NO!! with TC core!!?? NO!! with what ever you name NOOOO!!! So what's the big deal if SCOPE is getting old, cheers mate enjoy making music***

Post by **hubird** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 6:39 pm

that's how I see it

man, I bought me another (second hand) XTC card combined with a damn pro Mastering pack, plus Minimax, Prodyssey and Solaris recently for half the price...
What should I want more, except OS-X support and ok. a fiwi box

New, new, new...new songs I would say, and that's what I'm working on

To put it another way, the music forum should be the most crowded forum of planetz

cheerz

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-10-19 19:43 ]

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:27 pm

isnt analog synts quite old? and analog compressors?

I even hear people are still recording albums with Roland Space Echoes.

Seriously, there are a lot of better price/product if you use your card for IO only.

Have a whole album been made entirely on SCOPE? not as far as i know, but hey, maybe that would be an interesting idea for an album compo? each entry should be of one song, but users should be allowed to give as many submissions they wanted. CWA should maybe be able to distribute the FINISHED album on their web page (in its finished form, maybe they could pick up 1 submission every 14th day and comment on the contribution on their web-page)like if we made a new topic to our forum called "compo submissions", compo rules are in example:

- Only comoputer based sound generators/FX should be scope/mod devs

- Outboard gear is allowed as long as they are not treated with outboard FX

- Vocs are welcome (again, they should not be treated with outboard FX)

- Have a price for most original/creative routing (which makes sence)

PS. check out the album "At Home With the Groovebox" where Roland equipped a lot of musicians with their MC-505, and got a big hype with decent reviews on it. Maybe this is a good idea for CWA?

PPS.oh and if you hear have a listen to Junkie XL's 3 A.M. album, you might hear the scope sound. im not saying you will, but i noticed that on some songs before i even knew he had a CW card in his system.

[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2004-10-19 22:52 ]

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:32 pm

On 2004-10-19 19:39, hubird wrote:

New, new, new...new songs I would say, and that's what I'm working on
To put it another way, the music forum should be the most crowded forum of planetz
cheerz

I completely agree with Hubird on this one, less talk, less typing, more playing, more recording!

R

Post by **hubird** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:36 pm

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:55 pm

On 2004-10-19 08:59, Rogurt wrote:
noone has ever stated that a total control motorized setup worked. Not even CW did mention more than "u can control things via midi..."

In my opinion remote control does work amazingly well, with a few caveats.

I'm doing it in a slightly unusual way, and it works great for me. However I'm using a 2nd computer -- not a badmotorfader. The 2nd computer lets me control SFP, Nuendo / Vegas, and all outboard effects using a single interface. And it's scripted, so I can program to my heart's content.

However in order to achieve this you need: 1) lots of DSP; and 2) a separate MIDI channel for every 120 MIDI ccs. For example, my current setup is a 24 x 12 x 2 mixer with 5 auxes. The MIDI channel assignments are as follows:

Channel strips 1-8 (gain, EQ, expander, compressor, all fully automated)
Channel strips 9-16
Channel strips 17-24
[*} (unused for now)
Bus sends 1-5 (x 24 channels) (outboard)
Bus sends 6-10 (x 24 channels) (outboard)
Bus sends 11-12 (x 24 channels) ("clean")
Aux sends 1-5 (x 24 channels)
Outboard effects
Outboard effects
Outboard effects
Sonic TimeWorks P-100 reverb
Wolf Audio Design Matrix Delay
Master mix (bus levels and pans x 12, aux levels x 5, delay latency compensation for each bus and aux, master send)
DADEV master compressor (not currently automated but am hoping it will be with the latest release that fits into an Aux module), GraphEQ (31 bands + Q are automated), and a few extra odds and ends
Sequencer transport control

This kind of setup isn't realistic for a smaller CW card.

Also the MIDI messages do get lost if you send them faster than once every 80 milliseconds. This is OK by me, though it might cause problems for badmotorfaders. I don't know whether you can force them to delay between control messages...?

(Some MIDI gear allows you to introduce delays in sysex messages, for example, to prevent librarian overload.)

I've found that, in almost all cases, the 128 MIDI steps provide more than adequate resolution for my mixing needs. I've enumerated the lists of values corresponding to MIDI controls for many of the SFP modules (the PEQ4, expander, compressor, mixer faders, GraphEQ, and so on), and for the most part the MIDI ccs are sensibly placed on logarithmic or similarly non-linear scales -- for example, gain at the bottom of the range jumps by 2.7 db / MIDI value, whereas at more "useable" levels it jumps by only 0.4 db.

The project has been a much bigger undertaking than I originally anticipated. But some day it will be finished, and I'll put the project files up here on Planet Z for anyone else who's interested in playing around with them. They are currently tailored to my needs. But once I've ironed out all the bugs (outboard latency being the latest one, even though Valis warned me about it ages ago

), I'll make more "generic" versions.

I would also be happy to help out anyone who wants to try setting up a MIDI remote control surface.

Anyway in my opinion MIDI automation works better in SFP than in any other piece of computer software I've ever used (except visual programming languages like Max / MSP and the like). I believe that with a bit of effort and patience, some brave soul would be able to successfully set up a badmotorfader with SFP.

But it will take a brave soul.

$0.02,

Johann

Post by **hubird** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:20 pm

jeezzs!