CreamWare vs. Pro Tools

A place to talk about whatever Scope music/gear related stuff you want.

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blazesboylan
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Post by blazesboylan »

Yes NPrime, we've definitely drifted off topic. :smile:

(Incidentally, though, I do think it's perfectly legit to compare CW hardware + plugs to PT just hardware + plugs.)

Nevertheless I'm still enjoying + learning from this thread. So... I'm about to drift even further out!

About the Euphonics and Fairlight and so on: I'm not convinced. Maybe those are big in Hollywood, GaryB. And granted, Bassdude, the Fairlights are extremely powerful consoles, by the looks of 'em. But Fairlight has been coming and going for years, so whether or not it's a better mousetrap, I wouldn't count on it being around for very long. (Though it'll keep coming back of course!)

Euphonics has really targeted the film industry. Maybe they're hoping that surround music DVDs or SACDs or something really take off. But so far noone (that I've heard of, anyway) is doing music in surround. So we'll see if that changes. But in the meantime Euphonics has a very niche market, and is priced accordingly.

I suspect the trend for big studios will, in future, be in the opposite direction. Toward the whole "vintage", "analogue" etc industry.

Despite the trend toward "vintage" and "analogue" (or whatever else), SSL hasn't lost its foothold yet. Don't forget, it takes 5+ years to pay off a large format console. You don't just switch them in and out because "Mix" magazine says there's a sexier brand out there. And up here in Canada, at least, SSL and Neve stil rule supreme in the biggest studios. In medium-sized studios of course there is no "standard". There are thousands of consoles in use by mid-sized studios. I'll get back to the "missing medium" shortly though...

I do agree 100%, Scary808, on the downscaling trend. Who needs 80 inputs in a mixing console?!? That's ludicrous, even in the biggest studio.

Whatever the trends in consoles, I have a sneaking suspicion that we'll see more and more gear in the "cheap crap" and "expensive boutique" categories for a while to come. The music recording industry, at least, seems to be dviding into two camps: the experts and the plebeians. The experts control the trends and standards and prices so that the pro industry is beyond the reach of DIYers. They also don't like to share useful knowledge with the plebs, and they certainly don't like the plebs buying their holy imperial gear.

Thus this whole "vintage" trend. I really do think it's more about control than it is about quality. You can disagree with me, of course. But we have all been swept up in silly ideas of "warm" and "fat" sounding gear. Why? Why not get caught up in gear that reproduces sound accurately?

I confess to being caught up in this craze too. I like "mud" and "dirt" and "colouring" too.

But maybe, just maybe, if I hadn't been brought up on the sound of inaccurate audio equipment -- maybe I would think "warm" and "fat" and so on are just euphemisms for a bad reproduction.

In spite of everything I hate about "democracy" in general, I look around me and see that every lasting standard in audio is (either by accident or by design) inaccessible to the small / medium business or home user. Even as technology gives us the opportunity to develop cheap high-quality gear, the industry becomes more stratified and the "middle ground" disappears.

Thank goodness there are still a few companies left filling in the middle ground between cheap crap and overly expensive "pro" gear. Thank goodness for the few manufacturers of affordable, high-quality gear. Thank goodness for CreamWare! :smile:

And thank goodness for PlanetZ. There aren't many "middle ground" discussion forums, online or anywhere else, I tell ya. Places where even nattering obnoxious DIYers like me can learn something useful each and every time we visit.

Long live the middle ground!

Cheers and thanks, as always, for y'all's comments,

Johann

P.S. Loved the line "most truly professional studios do... infomercial to porn to church work." Classic. :smile:

P.P.S. Thanks for the smilies Hubird! Since I promised it, my kingdom is yours if you want it. But you're already King of Smilies! :grin:
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garyb
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Post by garyb »

in hollywood, they do change out consoles because of fashion(and before a profit is made.big studios are rarely profitable. they switch hands constantly as the owners resach bankruptcy. :wink: ). also besides film, hollywood (l.a. in general) does quite a bit of the world's big budget recording. they spend money like water.

the fairlight is currently the darling of the n.y.c. multimedia studios(film,t.v. and....).

ssls are wonderful, still. :wink:

vintage is niche,quaint,vibey..
the big money studios aren't going there.(except for the fact that they have some old stuff that is moldering in the back...) the exception of course, are vintage, highly modified neves, which are always popular in rock circles....

of course, with a good engineer and a great room, all of the options are great sounding in their own way...
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Post by maakbow »

They also don't like to share useful knowledge with the plebs, and they certainly don't like the plebs buying their holy imperial gear.

I think there is plenty of gear that is cheap AND good...and some of the PRO's do snob it...but many don't.

I have also found some real pros with cred willing to share great info...some even on forums.
You just have to aproach them right.
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Post by musurgio »

Protools has a better sound than my Pulsar2 and RME ADI pro8 system.
It has more punch, the sound has more attack and thats maybe because protools is an integrated system with great AD DA section...
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Post by samplaire »

And I have completly oposite opinion :smile: I like PT, I love Pulsar. But the most punchy, rich sound comes out... Session 8 and it's 888 Studio interface. But that's only my opinion :cool:
blazesboylan
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Post by blazesboylan »

On 2004-06-29 03:33, garyb wrote:
vintage is niche,quaint,vibey..
the big money studios aren't going there.(except for the fact that they have some old stuff that is moldering in the back...) the exception of course, are vintage, highly modified neves, which are always popular in rock circles....
OK maybe "vintage" is the wrong expression. But there is a huge, expensive market right now for new "vintage sounding" gear. I.e. gear that heavily colours sound. Everything from tube compressors & mic pres to limiters with crappy "old school" components to digital "modelling" units to analogue audio summing boxes. In the console realm this is where companies like Daking and Amek are doing their business. I don't know whether they're successful at it. But there has been a definite trend in general in the music biz toward "coloured" sound.

(I know I keep ignoring studios that focus their business more on film, TV, and so on. :smile: It's not that I'm not interested in 'em, just that I don't know anything about them. Presumably they, at least, are sensible enough to avoid this whole "vintage sound" trend...)

of course, with a good engineer and a great room, all of the options are great sounding in their own way...
This is another trend that I wonder about. Maybe it's only been happening up here in Canada. But "engineers" aren't engineers any more. Studio "Engineers" seem to all be musicians with no background or training in physics or electronics. The real engineers of yore have all gone on to manufacture equipment. They are the real "experts" in the community.

Anyway I should be happy with experts running the world. After last night's election I'm thoroughly depressed with democracy...

Cheers,

Johann
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Post by bassdude »

On 2004-06-29 12:23, blazesboylan wrote:
.......
This is another trend that I wonder about. Maybe it's only been happening up here in Canada. But "engineers" aren't engineers any more. Studio "Engineers" seem to all be musicians with no background or training in physics or electronics. .......
I reckon it's happening just about everywhere. I've become cynical as I grow oleder but I do agree with you here.
A sound engineer was an "engineer" I used to think. I remember my first training course (age 14) where the exam not only included twiddling knobs but also had you answer questions regarding physics and properties of sound waves etc. The kind of stuff you would wonder - why do I need to study this? Then later when the upright acoustic bass had a horrible phase sound when mixed with the drum kit, you would just naturally time align ( a mix of science as well as art ). :smile:

It's good that you can get into audio recording cheaper these days (if only I'd been born 20 years later) but sometimes I see questions on forums where people want the instant answer (thanks to google) without learning basic concepts. Some of the questions that are asked really says to me that said person should not be recording in the first place (until they pull their finger out, get off their own lazy ass and learn for themselves).
Another thing that annoys me is :- "my soundblaster is not recognised by Nuendo. Why ?????". Do these people really expect us to believe that they payed $3000.00 for Nuendo and choose to use a soundblaster as the interface? :grin:
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nprime
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Post by nprime »

I fully agree with the concept that it is the human not the machine that results in a quality result. I like to remember that the first slbum by "Eurythnmics" was recorded on a Tascam 8 track 1/2" machine with the basic Tascam board, virtually no outboard gear, and one hell of a lot of imagination on Mr. Stewart's part!!!! (snare drum on one track is a wire brush smacking a screen door). That album stood up against stuff that was recorded in the finest multi-million dollar facilites of the time!

The dead give-away of the "fake engineer" is a desperate plea for "better presets" for this that or the other device. This indicates a clear lack of understanding as to how basic studio gear, such as compressors, reverbs, etc. actually work.

I come from the old school where you had to actually know what all those knobs and switches did, there were no presets, and a good piece of outboard gear cost about as much as a whole scope system does now.

I admit that I do get sick of people whining about the cost of plug-ins and software, I mean, the stuff that is included with Scope would cost thousands of dollars to duplicate in the "real" world!

Work harder! Study more!

Basic engineering skills...a dying art.
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Post by garyb »

yes.
blazesboylan
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Post by blazesboylan »

My humble apologies to everyone for getting so far off-topic! This isn't really about CreamWare / SCOPE at all any more... :smile:

But it's Friday, I can't help myself...
I think there is plenty of gear that is cheap AND good.
OK maybe we should start up a thread in the "Off-Topic" section, something like "What's your favourite piece of cheap gear?". Seriously, Maakbow...

99.999% of the cheap gear I've used is constructed poorly -- bad solder jobs, cheap components, consumer-level ins and outs, stupid wall-wart power xformers, and so on.

But between the cheap gear market and the high-quality "boutique" market there's an almost entirely empty space. There are very few pieces of gear out there that use good quality components, are designed and built to last for 30+ years, and don't cost a fortune. The weird thing is that if you want to buy quality handcrafted gear, you have to get into this "vintage sound" crap.

For example, I just don't understand why there aren't more well-constructed reasonably-transparent-sounding dynamics devices. I don't want to add tape saturation or tube compression to my mix. I just want a good quality compressor with +4 dbu ins and outs, a real power transformer, good signal-to-noise, and good response even at extreme settings. I'd be happy to be edified in this matter, but for the time being I don't believe such a thing exists. Not even in the "boutique" market, where everything is a bloody emulator of some sort.

Some might reach good results just by talented and intuitive working with the new generation of recording equipment.
I disagree on this one, Stardust. Talent and intuition don't fix busted gear for you, don't help you avoid silly physics mistakes (BassDude mentioned phase problems, not to mention bad mic'ing techniques :smile:), and generally don't prevent you from making a ton of mistakes in what is invariably a complex system.

Maybe the day will come when we no longer use microphones at all, and every signal is sent over fibre optics to an automatic mixing machine. But until then physics and engineering are vital knowledge in the studio IMHO.

Quite frankly I'm ashamed of my own poor knowledge of eng + physics. But it really scares me that many pro studio "engineers" don't know anything beyond "oooo, that sounds nice."

"my soundblaster is not recognised by Nuendo. Why ?????"
I fixed the problem. But I still can't get ASIO to work.

Oh yeah, and I did pay 3 gazillion bucks for Nuendo. I got in on sale at "The Audio Warezhouse". Pretty expensive. Which is why it peeves me that it doesn't support every piece of hardware on the planet. And it doesn't even make coffee!! What a ripoff!!!!

The dead give-away of the "fake engineer" is a desperate plea for "better presets" for this that or the other device.
Guilty as charged! :smile:

In some ways I agree with you, NPrime. However there is something to be said for a device that comes with a few really useful presets that can be dialled in quickly. Even the Pros don't want to spend hours tweaking devices.

Nevertheless the "how do I use this device" posts are not terribly useful to people. What I would like to see, especially here at Planet Z!, are more "tips" or even downloadable presets for solving specific problems.

Hmmmm, maybe I should go post a tip.

Aw'ight -- argue back! Let me have it! :wink:

Cheers,

Johann
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bassdude
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Post by bassdude »

.....
"my soundblaster is not recognised by Nuendo. Why ?????"
I fixed the problem. But I still can't get ASIO to work.

Oh yeah, and I did pay 3 gazillion bucks for Nuendo. I got in on sale at "The Audio
.....
Cheers,

Johann
Pls don't be offended at this comment Johann as it was certainly not aimed at yourself (in fact I would be hard pressed to aim it at anyone at the Z for that matter) it was just an aside that I always find amusing when visiting forums on other sites. I just thought I would mention it.

Stardust wrote:-
hmmm,

I think its not a question of acoustic engineering skills to make pleasing recording results.
I would see it more like a question of talent.
Music production is definitely, IMO, a mix of science *and* art. Talent is part of it and knowledge is the other. Which is what makes it so interesting to me. For instance, great talent gets you a great melody and performance captured to tape (art). But there is this odd phase problem. Draw on a bit of acoustic wave behaviour theory and you understand that distance between two mikes (bleed) is a problem so delay needs to be used to compensate in one of the mics (science).
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Post by blazesboylan »

Well I'm not offended Bassdude, but are you suggesting that Nuendo doesn't support ASIO with my Soundblaster Pro?!? What a piece of crap Nuendo is!

<font size="-3">Jus' playin' Bassdude. :razz:</font>

Johann
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Post by bassdude »

:grin:
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