Hi All,
Since I have been asked repeatedly about doing a drum box device, I'd like to know what it is about the current offerings that is not 'satisfying' to Pulsar users. What is it that you want/need more of, or that needs to be different?
I have the EDS 8 & 16i, and Adern's 'kickme'. I can see a whole set from Adern would be quite wonderful, since the kickme device has such a great sound to it. (I don't know if he is planning on a complete set, though.)
In any case, I'm just now looking into this, and would love to hear from people, either directly, or in this forum.
regards,
Drum devices
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kensuguro
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thanx for asking for input!
Specifically about the eds series, all thier envelopes are quite weak sounding.. In other words, their peaks aren't quite pointy enough. It's also a similar problem in modular, where I have to combine 2 AD EGs to achieve really snappy envelopes. Also, I think the eds series also sufferes from non synced oscilators (not synced with keystroke) so you end up with a slightly different kick sound every time. Kickme is synced I believe.
eds series also lacks any sort of serious filter. It does come with a lowpass or highpass, but you can't set Q on these and they also seem to have a preset range. It also might be better if you used a state variable (multimode) filter so the user can choose which filter type to use.
Many users have also requested an AHD envelope as the hold can be used to create extra body and punch. (mainly for kick drums)
I personally have a custom mod patch that I use for all my analogue style kicks, and it has an AHD for VCA, and 2 AD combined for pitch. (an AD for overall pitch, and an AD for the beginning "snap") Uses MultiOSC. Seems good enough for most occasions.
Finally, as a realistic problem, I don't like using prefab drumkits because they're too DSP heavy. Seems better if you have different devices for each instrument, or be able to turn off instruments to save DSP. (I guess this one was pretty obvious) I also doubt you need to have hardwired effects like overdrive, phase, or delay since I do them on the mixer side anyway.
so, that's my idea. I imagine everyone has their own "dream" drum machine idea.
Specifically about the eds series, all thier envelopes are quite weak sounding.. In other words, their peaks aren't quite pointy enough. It's also a similar problem in modular, where I have to combine 2 AD EGs to achieve really snappy envelopes. Also, I think the eds series also sufferes from non synced oscilators (not synced with keystroke) so you end up with a slightly different kick sound every time. Kickme is synced I believe.
eds series also lacks any sort of serious filter. It does come with a lowpass or highpass, but you can't set Q on these and they also seem to have a preset range. It also might be better if you used a state variable (multimode) filter so the user can choose which filter type to use.
Many users have also requested an AHD envelope as the hold can be used to create extra body and punch. (mainly for kick drums)
I personally have a custom mod patch that I use for all my analogue style kicks, and it has an AHD for VCA, and 2 AD combined for pitch. (an AD for overall pitch, and an AD for the beginning "snap") Uses MultiOSC. Seems good enough for most occasions.
Finally, as a realistic problem, I don't like using prefab drumkits because they're too DSP heavy. Seems better if you have different devices for each instrument, or be able to turn off instruments to save DSP. (I guess this one was pretty obvious) I also doubt you need to have hardwired effects like overdrive, phase, or delay since I do them on the mixer side anyway.
so, that's my idea. I imagine everyone has their own "dream" drum machine idea.
Ahhh, drum machines. I've been a huge fan of drum machiens for many years. I have owned 808, 606, 909, Drumulator, SC Tom & Dumtracks etc etc and all the way through software machines.
By far the best at the moment imho is the Microtonic, a really superb machine.
The only major criticism I have of that machine is the miserable 16-steps. I'd venture that no serious drum programmer uses just 16-step patterns - 32 is a must. Chaining patterns together is a pain in the a...
So that's number 1: must have 32-steps. Of course that's assuming you have an on-board pattern bank, so: must also have onboard pattern bank.
I also vote for forgetting about loading external sounds - there are squillions of drum-sampler types devices. Let's just focus on pure synthesis.
And my absolute all-time wish for a SFP drum machine is that it might have the ability to export its own patterns as a wav loop (with the effects tail "wrapped" to the start). Probably a forlorn hope, or just impossible... but what a joy (for me) to be able to export a SFP wav file using SFP effects etc
On-board effects would also be nice, but the only ones that would be really useful I think are multiple delays - perhaps even something approaching the excellent SFP pattern delay. You can get so much happening with a flexible delay. One that you can define the usual sync divisions to, but also I'd like a "variation" knob which would let you push the timing out just a little bit out so you could get nice "doubled" effects. An synced-LFO to modulate the delay time would also be nice.
I'd also like the GUI to be BIG. It should be a synth, plus have room for (say) six displayed rows of 32 steps each.
That's a lot of little buttons, but think about what makes FL Studio so famously good at drums: it's the big, open, resizeable grid. No point in cramming things up - this sort of programming has a very high visual element. And on the buttns themselves, one click to place a sound, one click to get rid of it - none of this two-click SFP rubbish that we have on the seq modules...
Going back to the Microtonic, the other features missing imho are an bpm-synced LFO on the filter; and BPM sync on the oscillator's LFO.
But the accent and fill buttons are very good. A more heavily worked version of the "fill" function might yeild some great possibilties ?
Better stop now before I get really carried away...
By far the best at the moment imho is the Microtonic, a really superb machine.
The only major criticism I have of that machine is the miserable 16-steps. I'd venture that no serious drum programmer uses just 16-step patterns - 32 is a must. Chaining patterns together is a pain in the a...
So that's number 1: must have 32-steps. Of course that's assuming you have an on-board pattern bank, so: must also have onboard pattern bank.
I also vote for forgetting about loading external sounds - there are squillions of drum-sampler types devices. Let's just focus on pure synthesis.
And my absolute all-time wish for a SFP drum machine is that it might have the ability to export its own patterns as a wav loop (with the effects tail "wrapped" to the start). Probably a forlorn hope, or just impossible... but what a joy (for me) to be able to export a SFP wav file using SFP effects etc
On-board effects would also be nice, but the only ones that would be really useful I think are multiple delays - perhaps even something approaching the excellent SFP pattern delay. You can get so much happening with a flexible delay. One that you can define the usual sync divisions to, but also I'd like a "variation" knob which would let you push the timing out just a little bit out so you could get nice "doubled" effects. An synced-LFO to modulate the delay time would also be nice.
I'd also like the GUI to be BIG. It should be a synth, plus have room for (say) six displayed rows of 32 steps each.
That's a lot of little buttons, but think about what makes FL Studio so famously good at drums: it's the big, open, resizeable grid. No point in cramming things up - this sort of programming has a very high visual element. And on the buttns themselves, one click to place a sound, one click to get rid of it - none of this two-click SFP rubbish that we have on the seq modules...
Going back to the Microtonic, the other features missing imho are an bpm-synced LFO on the filter; and BPM sync on the oscillator's LFO.
But the accent and fill buttons are very good. A more heavily worked version of the "fill" function might yeild some great possibilties ?
Better stop now before I get really carried away...
Ah, I guess it's also going to be a question of a 'drum machine' or just a 'drum sound module'. So far, there's nothing in the drum machine area, with step sequencing patterns, etc. Is that what the Pulsar community wants? Often times I'm told that the step sequencers in various products (SB-404, my Pro One and Solaris) are not needed since everyone is using some kind of software sequencer.
Thanks for pointing out FL Studio and Microtonic - I've never heard of either one before! (The FL stuff looks pretty nice...)
Thanks for pointing out FL Studio and Microtonic - I've never heard of either one before! (The FL stuff looks pretty nice...)
john bowen
bowen synth design
zarg music
bowen synth design
zarg music
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virtualstudio
- Posts: 451
- Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Terranova-Amsterdam
John,
Me, unlike Spirit, I don't like drummachines at all. I've worked with them a lot but never could get used to te sound, mainly cymbals but also toms and snare! I never heard a cymbal module sound good (in my ears)
I do like the Kick-Me !!
when I can't work with a real drumkit I use most of the times drum samples, Wizzoo Platinum drum kits sounds ok.
As for the software sequencer I would love to have a Scope dsp sequncer, somthing like in your Solaris, but more extended.
As I said somewhere before I would like to work without Cubase, as I only use it as midi seq. I do all my audio recording mixing and all effects in Scope.
Terranova Amsterdam
Me, unlike Spirit, I don't like drummachines at all. I've worked with them a lot but never could get used to te sound, mainly cymbals but also toms and snare! I never heard a cymbal module sound good (in my ears)
I do like the Kick-Me !!
when I can't work with a real drumkit I use most of the times drum samples, Wizzoo Platinum drum kits sounds ok.
As for the software sequencer I would love to have a Scope dsp sequncer, somthing like in your Solaris, but more extended.
As I said somewhere before I would like to work without Cubase, as I only use it as midi seq. I do all my audio recording mixing and all effects in Scope.
Terranova Amsterdam
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
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The way I see it, lots of people would use onboard sequencers on a drum box, and specifically a drumbox. If you think of a seq pattern as a loop, it's easy to understand. Lots of people use sampled loop drums and put together an arrangement in the sequencing software on top of it.Often times I'm told that the step sequencers in various products (SB-404, my Pro One and Solaris) are not needed since everyone is using some kind of software sequencer.
I believe that a good pattern matrix is a crucial part of any drum-machine. Arranging drum parts in a "normal" sequencer piano roll isn't good enough - again which is why FL Studio is so popular for drums - it's the matrix. It's also why dedicated drum machines such as the Microtonic are popular.
Part of this is ergonomics. You don't necessarily want to have drum patterns tied exclusively to a particular song.
If anyone works like me then you often "doodle" with drum patterns. You might have 10 or 110 of such doodles waiting for their moment of a glory in a song.
Your bank of doodles is then like your own preset list of loops to drop in. It is also where you might have written new drum sounds too. And perhaps your doodle written for 180bpm will sound fantastic dropped into your new 90bpm track...
(Being able to instantly swap individual sounds - or all sounds - for alternate saved versions is also a vital feature.)
If the drum machine is nothing more than a sound-source then you can have no patterns pre-prepared to mutate, but must start at zero every time.
So I think the matrix is not just a convenience, but would be fundamental to how the device is perceived and how people would work with it.
---
Let's hear as many opinions as possible on this fascinating sbject !
---
Part of this is ergonomics. You don't necessarily want to have drum patterns tied exclusively to a particular song.
If anyone works like me then you often "doodle" with drum patterns. You might have 10 or 110 of such doodles waiting for their moment of a glory in a song.
Your bank of doodles is then like your own preset list of loops to drop in. It is also where you might have written new drum sounds too. And perhaps your doodle written for 180bpm will sound fantastic dropped into your new 90bpm track...
(Being able to instantly swap individual sounds - or all sounds - for alternate saved versions is also a vital feature.)
If the drum machine is nothing more than a sound-source then you can have no patterns pre-prepared to mutate, but must start at zero every time.
So I think the matrix is not just a convenience, but would be fundamental to how the device is perceived and how people would work with it.
---
Let's hear as many opinions as possible on this fascinating sbject !
---
-
hubird
I like the wish list of Spirit very much, you can see he knows working with these machines.
Ken's wish for very fast envelops is also a good one.
John, you're right, people love to stick to their software sequencer, like I do
(The piano roll is harsh for drum programming, personnally I put everything as a loop in the loop slicing Phatmatic Pro VSTi).
But in this case, a really good walklight stepsequencer that is easy to use, I think it can seduce me to program my beats at least partly in SP
Spirit's random timing variation idea is great, I'd like to add another side of it.
I just finished drum programming in a new song, using NI Batterie VSTi.
With this it's very easy to apply modulation to a sample's pitch, in a very subtle way (random bi-polar, amongst other modes).
It keeps the ridms very lifely (not specially 'live'), so this is my wish on the list
This pitch/timing variation is not only important in 'real or 'live' drum' ridms, electronic ridms benefits also lovely from it
happy thinking on this drum machine, John
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-31 17:54 ]</font>
Ken's wish for very fast envelops is also a good one.
John, you're right, people love to stick to their software sequencer, like I do
(The piano roll is harsh for drum programming, personnally I put everything as a loop in the loop slicing Phatmatic Pro VSTi).
But in this case, a really good walklight stepsequencer that is easy to use, I think it can seduce me to program my beats at least partly in SP
Spirit's random timing variation idea is great, I'd like to add another side of it.
I just finished drum programming in a new song, using NI Batterie VSTi.
With this it's very easy to apply modulation to a sample's pitch, in a very subtle way (random bi-polar, amongst other modes).
It keeps the ridms very lifely (not specially 'live'), so this is my wish on the list
This pitch/timing variation is not only important in 'real or 'live' drum' ridms, electronic ridms benefits also lovely from it
happy thinking on this drum machine, John
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-31 17:54 ]</font>
Ok with everybody,
I noticed that all drum synthesis (Kick me, eds ...) produce kicks which content only odd harmonics (50,150,250 ...) they sound hollow to me.
A spectral view on analog kicks (909, jomox ...) shows that they contains all the harmonics (50,100,150,200 ...), sound is massive ....
---> IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR A GOOD SOUNDING KICK
So a particular attention has to be brought to the basis oscillators ....
I will post this WE what I consider to be the ultimate OSC for kick synthesis, waveform looks like a suite of a capacitor charge and discharge.
I noticed that all drum synthesis (Kick me, eds ...) produce kicks which content only odd harmonics (50,150,250 ...) they sound hollow to me.
A spectral view on analog kicks (909, jomox ...) shows that they contains all the harmonics (50,100,150,200 ...), sound is massive ....
---> IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR A GOOD SOUNDING KICK
So a particular attention has to be brought to the basis oscillators ....
I will post this WE what I consider to be the ultimate OSC for kick synthesis, waveform looks like a suite of a capacitor charge and discharge.
Faybs,
Your concern about the basic waveforms won't be a problem with the design approach I'm considering doing....
The 32 steps is a problem, though, at least with the current step sequencer block I'm using in Pro One and Solaris. There's no way to edit the block, at least until we developers get the new SDK.
OTOH, Adern/Assaf Dar seems to have been able to construct some cool things without Script editing - perhaps he will come out with a real step sequencer for general Pulsar-related things?
It will be much easier for me to start with just a sound-generating device, then have something with a pattern sequencer added at a later date, if I ever get greater access to editing things on a lower level. All of the requests for slight deviations of timing, and so on - these are all beyond what I can do with the present Scope atoms.
And how about some comments on the Modular drum modules - I haven't heard much regarding these: the MDS8 gives the grid pattern function; then there's the DrumSynth, DrumOSC, sDrumOSC, percOSC, and HH Source...any comments about those?
john b.
zarg music
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2004-06-04 00:32 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2004-06-04 00:52 ]</font>
Your concern about the basic waveforms won't be a problem with the design approach I'm considering doing....
The 32 steps is a problem, though, at least with the current step sequencer block I'm using in Pro One and Solaris. There's no way to edit the block, at least until we developers get the new SDK.
OTOH, Adern/Assaf Dar seems to have been able to construct some cool things without Script editing - perhaps he will come out with a real step sequencer for general Pulsar-related things?
It will be much easier for me to start with just a sound-generating device, then have something with a pattern sequencer added at a later date, if I ever get greater access to editing things on a lower level. All of the requests for slight deviations of timing, and so on - these are all beyond what I can do with the present Scope atoms.
And how about some comments on the Modular drum modules - I haven't heard much regarding these: the MDS8 gives the grid pattern function; then there's the DrumSynth, DrumOSC, sDrumOSC, percOSC, and HH Source...any comments about those?
john b.
zarg music
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2004-06-04 00:32 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnbowen on 2004-06-04 00:52 ]</font>
If it's just a sound device then perhaps at some later date they could drop into a step sequencer shell ? Sort of Red Dwarf style ?
Of the current drum modules I have a very low opinion. The hats module is completely forgettable. The only module worth bothering about is the full drum synth, but it lacks a bpm-sync LFO, so again its ability to produce interesting sounds is limited.
EQ, and a super-fast LFO to produce a pseudo cross-mod sounds would all be nice.
If there were delays's built into the device, then would it be possible to select the BPM-sync, but also to have the rate sliders (or knobs etc) still active so that a little "nudge" of the slider would rlease the delay from BPM-sync and push it a little bit out from its former sync value ?
In fact a good delay would add a lot imho. With a good unit you could get flange, flam, the usual delays, and perhaps something approaching a sort of fill pattern if it incorporated elements of the CWA "pattern delay" idea ?
A LFO to modulate delay time (mentioned earlier) might also be very nice.
I suppose having an effects slot (or two) would be even easier development-wise so long as each slot device was saved with the patch. Not so elegant in device terms though, it all gets a bit slow and messy.
But at least it'd then be easier to concentrate on building a really solid module.
I think synthesised drums have moved way, way beyond the 808 sound or the snare, tom, electro-tom sound.
We need something more like a mini synth but optimised for percussion. A device that can get some truly unique sounds. There's no point trying to emulate acoustic drums - why not just use samples ?
A more versatile oscillator with extreme parameters would be good. Resonance designed to be used at the extreme range,really finely tweakable envlopes etc
And sliders, not knobs
More later (can't help blathering ..,)
Of the current drum modules I have a very low opinion. The hats module is completely forgettable. The only module worth bothering about is the full drum synth, but it lacks a bpm-sync LFO, so again its ability to produce interesting sounds is limited.
EQ, and a super-fast LFO to produce a pseudo cross-mod sounds would all be nice.
If there were delays's built into the device, then would it be possible to select the BPM-sync, but also to have the rate sliders (or knobs etc) still active so that a little "nudge" of the slider would rlease the delay from BPM-sync and push it a little bit out from its former sync value ?
In fact a good delay would add a lot imho. With a good unit you could get flange, flam, the usual delays, and perhaps something approaching a sort of fill pattern if it incorporated elements of the CWA "pattern delay" idea ?
A LFO to modulate delay time (mentioned earlier) might also be very nice.
I suppose having an effects slot (or two) would be even easier development-wise so long as each slot device was saved with the patch. Not so elegant in device terms though, it all gets a bit slow and messy.
But at least it'd then be easier to concentrate on building a really solid module.
I think synthesised drums have moved way, way beyond the 808 sound or the snare, tom, electro-tom sound.
We need something more like a mini synth but optimised for percussion. A device that can get some truly unique sounds. There's no point trying to emulate acoustic drums - why not just use samples ?
A more versatile oscillator with extreme parameters would be good. Resonance designed to be used at the extreme range,really finely tweakable envlopes etc
And sliders, not knobs
More later (can't help blathering ..,)
The MDS8 is useless imho. The three click states is just slow and annoying, 16-steps is absolutely useless, and the little squares are too small.
If its a grid then it has to be done with commitment - big, clear buttons, fast functionality, and the ability to drag the nouse across the buttons to paint in material fast, not just one click at a time.
I did make a little drum machine here that uses it, but still....
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=15&3
Either go all the way and do the grid right or forget it. The MDS8 is half-assed, antiquated and forgettable.
If its a grid then it has to be done with commitment - big, clear buttons, fast functionality, and the ability to drag the nouse across the buttons to paint in material fast, not just one click at a time.
I did make a little drum machine here that uses it, but still....
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... forum=15&3
Either go all the way and do the grid right or forget it. The MDS8 is half-assed, antiquated and forgettable.
When are you finally going to learn to make your own 32 step seq? It's been explained to you how to do it. Apparently you seem to ignore it completely, why's that? In the meantime you keep stressing the fact that you don't have a 32 step sequencer. WTF?
more has been done with less
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
Make one in ModIII ? But why when the existing modules are not up to native plug standards anyway ? Some cumbersome mess hooking up and syncing modules together ? Come on, that's like a lesson on "how to turbo-charge your Model-T Ford". 
But JB is holding out the promise here of a device that would be a real audio standout.
And in any case, perhaps you missed the part in this thread which asks for opinions and comments. So "WTF" right back at you
Maybe instead you might have something constructive to add to the debate ?
But JB is holding out the promise here of a device that would be a real audio standout.
And in any case, perhaps you missed the part in this thread which asks for opinions and comments. So "WTF" right back at you
Maybe instead you might have something constructive to add to the debate ?