Modular III + Flexor + DSP upgrade or Reaktor 4?

vmartell · Post by **vmartell** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 3:09 pm

I am the very proud owner of a Pulsar I card.
So far I've been very happing using the bundled synth pack, but I have always been intrigued by the Modular and was planning to get it.

- I've looked a bit in to DSP usage and reached that conclusion that I would need some extra DSP - maybe a Luna II card in addition to my Pulsar I. That was my plan for some time and was probably going to execute it this Xmas.

- However, I learned about NI Reaktor 4.0. It is indeed very impressed and it seems to have many features that MIII doesn't have.

- But, Flexor came out. The mp3 demos sound incredible...

So now I have to make a decision:

- Modular III + Flexor + Luna II
$100 + $100 + $400 = $600
or
- Reaktor 4 - $429 (at Musicians' Friend)

My PC is good enough to run Reaktor 4 comfortably, Athlon XP 2800, 2GB memory, 200GB storage.

Of course, my guess is that most of the people here would go for the Pulsar setup, but I would love to know more opinions. Have anyone here picked Reaktor 4 over the Modular III ? Why ? what about the other way around?

Thanks

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:24 pm

since you already have Modular 2 it should be easy to compare to some Reaktor demos or some deviated synths like Carbon.

In my ears it doesn't even come close to Modular's sound quality, let alone together with Flexor

ordered my copy today

Reaktor has a very special sound color, which may of course fit one or the other mix, but it doesn't qualify as an overall source (imho) - emphasized but somehow flat sounding mids.

I'd rather delay the Mod3 update and suggest the XTC christmas pack which has 6 DSPs and a very useful mastering bundle, in case you don't have that software yet.
Compared to the Luna price you get either 3 DSPs or the software for free.

I also have Mod3 and a few other DSP eaters on a Pulsar One, but would consider the Luna as a DSP extension (3 DSPs is one Uberplastic voice) only if budget is totally tight or to get it with the IO box.

my 2 cents, Tom

vmartell · Post by **vmartell** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:46 pm

Thanks Tom.

I don't own Modular II. I just noticed that the price I quoted for M III was for the upgrade from M2; full price for M III is 249. I did not think of getting M2. I couldn't find it in the CW shop, but then again, maybe I am too dumb to use the site

... Is M2 + Flexor +LunaII a better option? Budget is tight.

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:49 pm

Granted a Pulsar2 would give you more dsp(I personally also have Pulsar1+Pulsar2) but if its modular synthesis you truly want then I'd go for flexor. Reaktor4 did benefit from the 'new' oscs in Pro53 and it can do sample-based manipulation that our dsp cards don't, but for solid fat synthesis CW ModII/III + Flexor stands up to even the Nord Mod G2 imo.

Of course I am definately biased as many people here will be, so what I suggest is trying out some demos:

Reaktor4 demo:
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?reaktor4_us
(demo links in left nav)

Flexor demo:
download build 1.0.00 (and patches if u wish):
http://www.adern.com/downloads/flexor_downloads.htm
you'll need to go here to request demo key:
http://shop.creamware.de/shop2000/de/Sh ... Y=3rdAdern
(the link is in the fleXor info, under further info)

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:51 pm

Ah, posted just after you replied to Tom. I don't believe that CW sells ModII anymore, and unfortunately you'll need a Modular version to do the fleXor demo :-/

I am still biased towards dsp synthesis though

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2003-11-03 16:52 ]

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:03 pm

I know it costs even more but a Pulsar 2 with the synths n samplers package (currently free) will give you Mod III then you just have to buy flexor.

If any of the other stuff in the Synths and Samplers package appeals to you (perhaps Minimax) then it might be worth it.

vmartell · Post by **vmartell** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:04 pm

Thanks for links.
To be honest, I only tried the Reaktor 4 demo. I really haven't tried the M III/Flexor demo. They are an option pretty much by default, just because of the quality of the Pulsar stuff I already own. The Reaktor demo triggered some doubts because
a) The total price would be cheaper
b) There is some stuff that is not in the CW stuff, even with Flexor

but..

- I'm pretty sure it will probably be awhile before I really miss whatever is in Reaktor 4 that is not on M III... is just nice knowing that is there
- And of course, I am a Pulsar user... I hear that the sound quality is better ( even with my lowly Edirol 10MD monitors - need to think about an upgrade too... maybe some M-Audio BX5s).
- But then again, even I would like to stay faithful to CW in their time of need ( are they doing better now?), the price difference is enough to consider the NI option.

I will continue doing my homework in addition of reading the opinios of this wise group.

Thanks

vmartell · Post by **vmartell** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:15 pm

On 2003-11-03 17:03, R-type wrote:
I know it costs even more but a Pulsar 2 with the synths n samplers package (currently free) will give you Mod III then you just have to buy flexor.

If any of the other stuff in the Synths and Samplers package appeals to you (perhaps Minimax) then it might be worth it.

Yikes !
Enough to keep me awake at night...

249 MIII + 100 Flexor + 400 Luna II = 749
Pulsar II Bundle 849 + Flexor 100 = 949
Reaktor 4 = 429.

The extra DSPs (for a total of 10) would do wonders to my current setup. It would keep me from having to bounce tracks so often... MIII, MiniMax... it's worth the difference... but is still 520 more that Reaktor 4...but MiniMax ! M III !, SB-404 !...

I could go on forever... decisions, decisions...

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:25 pm

some of John Bowen's stuff can host Flexor too:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... tart=60&71
close to the bottom of the page

cheers, Tom

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:32 pm

In my opinion, there are reasons to have both the Mod III + Flexor and Reaktor. But I know you need to make a choice at this point.

Reaktor does have features that you could argue would be definitely worth having that you will not find in Mod III. However, in my opinion,using Reaktor for pure synthesis doesn't sound quite as good (compared to Mod III) - so it depends what you are looking for.

By the way, if you are interested in purchasing Reaktor for less than it is at Musician's Friend, let me know. I have a second license that I no longer need that I would be willing to let go for a good price. It inlcudes Reaktor 3.0 and the full upgrade to 4.0 (manual, 4.0 upgrade CD with the new library, etc.). I would also include some extras (e.g., sample library, extra electronic insturments Reaktor patches, etc.)

The cheaper alternative may be good to start out with as you get into modular synthesis - then you can expand from there. Anyway, let me know if you might be interested - huffcw@netzero.com

[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2003-11-03 17:37 ]

R-type · Post by **R-type** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:43 pm

The extra DSPs (for a total of 10) would do wonders to my current setup. It would keep me from having to bounce tracks so often...

If you got the Pulsar 2 I'd say you'd end up bouncing tracks more often

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Mon Nov 03, 2003 7:29 pm

I'm selling a Luna II + 2496 Z-Link I/O and some plugs for $600. If that helps sweeten the deal for you, let me know.

That and a K2500 are listed for sale in the Pulsar Purhasing forum. I'm in Chicago, I believe the post has something about CHicago in it's title.

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:11 pm

vmartell, some questions before I ( or others ) add my 2 cents to your costly decision.
What do you want mostly or expect mostly ?
What kind(s) of music are you into ?

The mp3's of Flexor are just an appetizer for the purely amazing sounds it can create, if I had to choose between ModIII + Flexor and *all* my synths ( R4 in the lot ) well I wouldn't hesitate a second and I mean it !!

vmartell · Post by **vmartell** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:36 pm

On 2003-11-04 13:11, decimator wrote:
vmartell, some questions before I ( or others ) add my 2 cents to your costly decision.
What do you want mostly or expect mostly ?
What kind(s) of music are you into ?

The mp3's of Flexor are just an appetizer for the purely amazing sounds it can create, if I had to choose between ModIII + Flexor and *all* my synths ( R4 in the lot ) well I wouldn't hesitate a second and I mean it !!

Well, I am a hobbyist "mousician" and I basically do whatever interest me; I have no style or objective because what I do with my music gear is just for fun ( and to torture my friends with my home made CDs !

)

a) I am a classical music lover, so I've been doing the "put the classics on synth" thing, painstakingly taking stuff from the score... lot's of fun, lot's of hard work!

b) I also like Berlin style electronics, so play with that.

c) And last I am a fan of the new EBM Future Pop style, so I experiment doing the pounding rhythms of sequences that comes with it... lot's of Virus/Juno (UKNOW, of course) sounds.

The mp3 demos of Flexor and Reaktor have sounds that I believe would be great for all the things I try. Plus what I;m interested the most is in learning; it doesn't matter to me that I haven't really finished a track.. the fun is making all those bits and pieces of idea to sound cool.

Since learning is a big thing, I think that there's no cooler thing to learn than the modular type instruments, that's what I started looking at Flexor and Reaktor. BTW thisl would be my first music technology purchase since I bought my Pulsar I, midiman keyboard, Edirol monitors and Magix Music Studio.

With the info above, I guess some people would say that a hobbyst doesn't need Reaktor or Flexor... but well, I am curious ( and a computer engineer by training) and I want to play with that !

Anxiously waiting for the groups feedback...

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:55 pm

It's strange that I'm biased towards Reaktor.. mainly this:
* Reaktor's cheaper, and ok sound quality
* Mod2 and 3 both have their bag of bugs
* Reaktor may be more straight forward, Mod2 and 3 needs workarounds

I don't use Reaktor so I don't know about its bugs and stability issues, but be forwarned that Mod2 and 3 will give you headaches. (in return for awesome sound, of course) It's not a bad package at all, especially with flexor. I just wouldn't call it a starter package.

Thing is, I already had modular patching experience from Nord Mod when I got Mod2 for Pulsar. I've continued using Mod2, then Mod3... and it still gives me headaches. It's kinda like, I use it, but don't necessarily think it's a well written piece of software.

Modular synthesis is one of those things that you learn once, and use all over the place. You can learn the basics with whatever you want. It'll teach you to listen to a sound a interpret it into modules or seperate parts. Once you learn to do that, it's works for any modular package. So as far as learning's concerned, I'd go for the cheaper package. You can come back to Mod3 and flexor once you're comfortable. Who knows, we might have a Mod4 that runs more consistantly by then.

Here's another point of view. (am I messing you up?) I consider myself a strange patcher. And to do strange stuff, I need to think up of all sorts of tricks. That's probably why I'm running into problems. If I stuck to VA style synths, it may be a different story.

Perhaps someone who started modular patching on Pulsar can assist you with this question.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-11-04 14:16 ]

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:46 pm

From classical to EBM !

I started with Reaktor 2.3 in those pioneer says of VSTi's and Mod2 in the also pioneer day of the CW platform.
R4 is now relatively stable ( on Mac,I don't know ) the Modulars are temperamental as Ken said ...
If you want to go hardcore into patch design, sure Reaktor is rather high-end and customizable, I tried to study some deep creations and got headaches, you can connect modules as much as you want ( nearly ) and have just one knob appearing !
I heard MAX/MSP and Pure Data are even more hardcore ... now take care of not spending too much time on it, music is not being made on the meantime

There's not more than 1000 fabulous ensembles in the library ( IMHO ) between 100 and 200 are really emerging ( IMHO again )

There are lots of sequencers if you want to " pound " in lots of ways ...

Granular transmangler of samples ...

I learnt that the ensembles have to harbour good complexity to sound good, bad complexity for the sake of " more complex than thou " can lead to utter crap !

The Mod is easier to use, at least you see your connections and there's no macro hidden.

Some thoughts, gotta go ...

Later.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:28 pm

LOL! DEFINITELY steer away from Max/MSP or PD. It'll be suicide.

So it turns out Mod is easier to learn compared to Reaktor. That's good news.

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2003-11-04 15:31 ]

ReD_MuZe · Post by **ReD_MuZe** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:51 pm

well you all know my opinion probably but here ill say it again. to me reaktors sound quality just doesnt hold. i like to have synths that sound good. charecter is a very important ingredient and it is something that Reaktor misses bigtime.
excluding FleXor, ModularIII is is by far a better synth in tearms of sound quality, ease of operation, and ofcourse 0 latiency.
so it cant do some of the stuff that reaktor can , but in the same time reaktor cant do everything it can (especialy with flexor).

if you ask what should i buy? Reaktor or Modular Moog would you expect the same price? the Moogs sound is so much superrior to Reaktor. and in the same way Creamwares Modular is too.
i can recomend a shareware called synthedit that enables you to also make vst instruments with an interface much like reaktor, and the sound is a bit better than reaktor even... http://www.synthedit.com

now as a modular freek, i can say that expending your modular synth with new modules is always excelent
and you can cross patch multiple synths (Reaktor with Creamware and G2 and a moog and MOTM in one patch sounds nice eh?

)

[ This Message was edited by: ReD_MuZe on 2003-11-04 16:56 ]

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:55 pm

Kensuguro, Vmartell is a " computer engineer by training " and *if* he's the kind of guys I met in school, he can eat Modular III in the morning, Reaktor for lunch and MAX/MSP in the afternoon !

Those guys are overclocked !

And I maintain Modular III is simpler than R4 because at times you have a visible control and plenty of hidden & complicated macros and wiring between them and you have to understand at least a little the structure to make coherent moves ...

decimator · Post by **decimator** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:09 pm

Agree with the boss above statements !

It's the quality that keeps me going back to Creamware and definitely MIII+ Flexor.
TOO ADDICTIVE & HAIR RISING !
And the qualities I like : highly sensitive when tweaking, also extreme and fast as hell, furthermore a really simple patch can produce complex results.
And I'am still scratching the surface ...