Went to a shop to buy Acid Pro 4 today and the salesperson talked me out of it. "Not really suitable for what I want to do". Pushed Cubase SE/SL. I'm confused again (still). I've got Orion Platinum which will do for 24/96 play back and my midi programming. Should I go for Sound Forge as my main audio recording/editing package? Any suggestions?
(My marbles are around somewhere ...I just can't find 'em).
Sound Forge/Acid Pro 4
I've got a set-up almost exactly as you're considering: Orion Platinum for MIDI, AcidPro4 and SoundForge6. (Plus Fl Studio and a few good VSTis & effects etc etc)
You need an audio companion to Orion (although Orion audio recording is probably not far away I hear).
Typically I'll export pretty substantial parts from Orion and then mangle them in AcidPro. That's also where the CW layer usually comes in.
If you're using CW synths in Orion then I suppose you'd want SoundForge to record them ? Or perhaps the channel-grbber thingy (which seems ideal for this, but I haven't tried it).
SoundForge I usually use for mastering or as a "tape recorder" from all sorts of external sources: radio, CD, old tapes, some hardware etc. My mastering requirements don't usually demand "pristine" results since I'm mostly composing muysic for the web - websites & multimedia, low bitrate video etc
My main requirement is speed of operation - I have to get jobs done fast. I also need to run for a set time, eg: 92 seconds, 128 seconds etc. SoundForge is excellent in that area: take your mastered track, fade the end over 4 seconds instead of 6, stretch the entire track by 2 seconds etc.
And while I do like to have a temper tantrum from time to time moaning about the lack of audio loop export facilities in SFP, this system does work very well. (I'd *really* like to create loops from within sequenced modular devices in SFP).
The only alternative I'd consider would be Ableton Live. I've played with the demo a lot of it's a very good match to SFP. Of course you can still drop in pieces exported from Orion.
If I was starting from scratch I'm not sure whether I'd go for Ableton or Acid. Ableton has some nice toys and is fun to use, but then Acid gives a much better quality result in time-stretched audio and is easier to compose a full track (in my opinion obviously).
I started with Cubase after using hardware sequencers for years. I stuck with it for quite a while and then just let it lapse. I started having too much fun with Acid
By the time I got my PulsarII my days with Cubase were just about over. Sure it is an industry leading product and I'm sure it's wonderful for most people, but I find it rather bloated and horribly slow. (I still use it from time to time at a friend's studio). It does everything OK, whereas if you carefully choose your apps you can ensure you have a few well-targeted apps that do exactly what you want the way you want it and forget about all the other not-so-used bits.
In your case wouldn't this also severely double-up on your purchase of Orion ?
What is your main method of composition, or how are you wanting to operate ?
I'd also buy any SoFo products direct from their website rather than as a boxed product in Australia. The web is much cheaper - especially if you wait a while for one of the SoFo deals to roll around (usually at update time).
You need an audio companion to Orion (although Orion audio recording is probably not far away I hear).
Typically I'll export pretty substantial parts from Orion and then mangle them in AcidPro. That's also where the CW layer usually comes in.
If you're using CW synths in Orion then I suppose you'd want SoundForge to record them ? Or perhaps the channel-grbber thingy (which seems ideal for this, but I haven't tried it).
SoundForge I usually use for mastering or as a "tape recorder" from all sorts of external sources: radio, CD, old tapes, some hardware etc. My mastering requirements don't usually demand "pristine" results since I'm mostly composing muysic for the web - websites & multimedia, low bitrate video etc
My main requirement is speed of operation - I have to get jobs done fast. I also need to run for a set time, eg: 92 seconds, 128 seconds etc. SoundForge is excellent in that area: take your mastered track, fade the end over 4 seconds instead of 6, stretch the entire track by 2 seconds etc.
And while I do like to have a temper tantrum from time to time moaning about the lack of audio loop export facilities in SFP, this system does work very well. (I'd *really* like to create loops from within sequenced modular devices in SFP).
The only alternative I'd consider would be Ableton Live. I've played with the demo a lot of it's a very good match to SFP. Of course you can still drop in pieces exported from Orion.
If I was starting from scratch I'm not sure whether I'd go for Ableton or Acid. Ableton has some nice toys and is fun to use, but then Acid gives a much better quality result in time-stretched audio and is easier to compose a full track (in my opinion obviously).
I started with Cubase after using hardware sequencers for years. I stuck with it for quite a while and then just let it lapse. I started having too much fun with Acid
By the time I got my PulsarII my days with Cubase were just about over. Sure it is an industry leading product and I'm sure it's wonderful for most people, but I find it rather bloated and horribly slow. (I still use it from time to time at a friend's studio). It does everything OK, whereas if you carefully choose your apps you can ensure you have a few well-targeted apps that do exactly what you want the way you want it and forget about all the other not-so-used bits.
In your case wouldn't this also severely double-up on your purchase of Orion ?
What is your main method of composition, or how are you wanting to operate ?
I'd also buy any SoFo products direct from their website rather than as a boxed product in Australia. The web is much cheaper - especially if you wait a while for one of the SoFo deals to roll around (usually at update time).
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Basic Pitch
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:00 pm
While acid is a nice program, Cubase could do what you want all in one package,tracking, midi, audio editing and such, this is why I belive the sales man was trying to push that aspect for you, plus if you wanted to, you could then use xtc mode aswell, just a thought...
I actually run both, Cubase SX and also Nuendo 2.1 and have acid in the mix, but to be real honest I am dying to get my hands on Vegas, just saving up the cash, Vegas seems like Super Acid Delux, I cant wait to try this out, it seems like it really is a nice tool to use with CW and Sound Forge as companions..
So thats another angle
Cheers!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Basic Pitch on 2003-09-02 10:35 ]</font>
I actually run both, Cubase SX and also Nuendo 2.1 and have acid in the mix, but to be real honest I am dying to get my hands on Vegas, just saving up the cash, Vegas seems like Super Acid Delux, I cant wait to try this out, it seems like it really is a nice tool to use with CW and Sound Forge as companions..
So thats another angle
Cheers!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Basic Pitch on 2003-09-02 10:35 ]</font>
I use Vegas too - my main video editor. It's fantastic app. What makes it even better is that as an Acid user the app works almost exactly the same way which made learning so simple.
In fact Vegas has almost everything in it that AcidPro does, often they're just called slightly different things. I do a lot of soundtrack work in Vegas - taking long sections of music rendered from Acid or Orion, and dropping them onto multiple tracks, then adding commentary recorded in SoundForge, fading tracks up and down etc. It is brilliant for that sort of thing.
And while I agree with BasicPitch that Cubase can do most things that Acid can, it can't do it (IMHO) with the equivalent speed or easy grace.
As usual it all depends on what you want, where you think you might want to go, and how you like to work.
In fact Vegas has almost everything in it that AcidPro does, often they're just called slightly different things. I do a lot of soundtrack work in Vegas - taking long sections of music rendered from Acid or Orion, and dropping them onto multiple tracks, then adding commentary recorded in SoundForge, fading tracks up and down etc. It is brilliant for that sort of thing.
And while I agree with BasicPitch that Cubase can do most things that Acid can, it can't do it (IMHO) with the equivalent speed or easy grace.
As usual it all depends on what you want, where you think you might want to go, and how you like to work.
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Basic Pitch
- Posts: 627
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:00 pm
Actually
What I meant in full was that running a program like Cubase basically covers all the apps he uses in one, making it so you only need one enviorment, so instead of tracking midi in orion, audio in sound forge and editing/arrangment in acid, you essentially do all that in one app, making things faster, but nothing I have used does things as fast as acid based looping, but these are really to entirely different realms..
Acid is great for fast editing of audio parts and placemtn when it is based solely on loops, unfortunately this is where acid falls short, its a loop editior in essence, where as cubase is a full composition tool, whith very deep midi editing tools and such, and having the two running together is about as powerfull as one could want
So maybe the best situation is to buy both lol, thats how I use it, I compose parts, bounce them as perfect loops and mangle them in acid, then export back to wave and drop them back into cubase/nuendo
But now that I own a 15 dsp card and am getting my head around SFP and how things work, I am starting to get this itch to track in Cubase/Nuendo, then bounce all selections as audio and work in Vegas for its fast acid style loop editing and also my favorite aspect of acid which is in vegas is the ability to perform the old school machine gun edits! what can I say, nothing says electronic phunk like machine gun edits on multiple audio parts, its just a versatile tool and considering how well Vegas integrates with acid, how can ya gio wrong
Ohh well, my mind is running, they are all great apps and apps I could never get along without, yea it takes some time, but how can any one put a time on creativity, Some times Ill spend hours manipulation parts, going from nuendo, to soundforge, to acid, back to nuendo and back for more audio editing, as long as you are bouncing perfectly looped auio it just becomes so clear how powerfull these tools become!
Cheers!
What I meant in full was that running a program like Cubase basically covers all the apps he uses in one, making it so you only need one enviorment, so instead of tracking midi in orion, audio in sound forge and editing/arrangment in acid, you essentially do all that in one app, making things faster, but nothing I have used does things as fast as acid based looping, but these are really to entirely different realms..
Acid is great for fast editing of audio parts and placemtn when it is based solely on loops, unfortunately this is where acid falls short, its a loop editior in essence, where as cubase is a full composition tool, whith very deep midi editing tools and such, and having the two running together is about as powerfull as one could want
So maybe the best situation is to buy both lol, thats how I use it, I compose parts, bounce them as perfect loops and mangle them in acid, then export back to wave and drop them back into cubase/nuendo
But now that I own a 15 dsp card and am getting my head around SFP and how things work, I am starting to get this itch to track in Cubase/Nuendo, then bounce all selections as audio and work in Vegas for its fast acid style loop editing and also my favorite aspect of acid which is in vegas is the ability to perform the old school machine gun edits! what can I say, nothing says electronic phunk like machine gun edits on multiple audio parts, its just a versatile tool and considering how well Vegas integrates with acid, how can ya gio wrong
Ohh well, my mind is running, they are all great apps and apps I could never get along without, yea it takes some time, but how can any one put a time on creativity, Some times Ill spend hours manipulation parts, going from nuendo, to soundforge, to acid, back to nuendo and back for more audio editing, as long as you are bouncing perfectly looped auio it just becomes so clear how powerfull these tools become!
Cheers!
Yes, sure is a joy to to push the limits in one app and then drop it into the next one for more adventures (I adore the Acid chopper too).
I'd suggest going the SX direction too except that Mikka already has Orion so that'd be a bit of a waste. Can't think of why you'd use Orion if you had SX...
And although I don't want to seem like an Acid fanatic you can record track-long parts rather than just concentrate on loops. Often I'll make loops in FL Studio (mainly drums), drop them into Acid, then record looooong one-shots in Acid using CW synths. This in fact gives the music a very "natural" feel since it's a genuine manually-played take with no quantise possible. So there's no reason that Acid has to be confined to a repetitive loop feel which is sometimes seen as a weakness of Acid.
(I adore the Acid chopper too).I'd suggest going the SX direction too except that Mikka already has Orion so that'd be a bit of a waste. Can't think of why you'd use Orion if you had SX...
And although I don't want to seem like an Acid fanatic
you can record track-long parts rather than just concentrate on loops. Often I'll make loops in FL Studio (mainly drums), drop them into Acid, then record looooong one-shots in Acid using CW synths. This in fact gives the music a very "natural" feel since it's a genuine manually-played take with no quantise possible. So there's no reason that Acid has to be confined to a repetitive loop feel which is sometimes seen as a weakness of Acid.Why not check out Cakewalk Sonar?
It has all the functionality of ACID (it can work with ACID loops directly - for ease and flexibility working with audio).
It also has the full compositional features of Cubase - linear audio recording and all the midi recording, editing and playback functionality you could want.
The interface is pretty intuitive and easy to learn the basis. Plus it come with some nice extras, such as the Cyclone Groove Sampler:
Cyclone DXi presents a new, more flexible way of working with samples, and brings a live dynamic to loop-based music. It's a powerful 16-part, ACID™-compatible, groove sampler, composition tool, and loop editor wrapped up in a single DXi synth.
Load up to 16 loops or Wav samples and fire away. Spontaneously create loop-based music productions using any MIDI device, MIDI track, PC keyboard or mouse. Tweak individual slices of your loops, even combine parts of multiple loops to create and export your own custom grooves.
With the new Cyclone DXi from Cakewalk, you gain complete control over your loops and .wav files. With Groove Clip technology SONAR 1 allowed you to break up your loops into individual transients for real-time pitch shifting and tempo matching. Now we’ve upped the ante once again by allowing you to move, delete, tune, pan, and replace every single slice individually.
Don’t like the rim shot you used? Gone!
Wish you had used a different kick drum? Done!
Wish you hadn’t hit that one flat note on your guitar hook? No problem!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2003-09-02 16:45 ]</font>
It has all the functionality of ACID (it can work with ACID loops directly - for ease and flexibility working with audio).
It also has the full compositional features of Cubase - linear audio recording and all the midi recording, editing and playback functionality you could want.
The interface is pretty intuitive and easy to learn the basis. Plus it come with some nice extras, such as the Cyclone Groove Sampler:
Cyclone DXi presents a new, more flexible way of working with samples, and brings a live dynamic to loop-based music. It's a powerful 16-part, ACID™-compatible, groove sampler, composition tool, and loop editor wrapped up in a single DXi synth.
Load up to 16 loops or Wav samples and fire away. Spontaneously create loop-based music productions using any MIDI device, MIDI track, PC keyboard or mouse. Tweak individual slices of your loops, even combine parts of multiple loops to create and export your own custom grooves.
With the new Cyclone DXi from Cakewalk, you gain complete control over your loops and .wav files. With Groove Clip technology SONAR 1 allowed you to break up your loops into individual transients for real-time pitch shifting and tempo matching. Now we’ve upped the ante once again by allowing you to move, delete, tune, pan, and replace every single slice individually.
Don’t like the rim shot you used? Gone!
Wish you had used a different kick drum? Done!
Wish you hadn’t hit that one flat note on your guitar hook? No problem!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: huffcw on 2003-09-02 16:45 ]</font>
Thanks folks. I always appreciate the input. Basic Pitch, I'm staying away from SX. I've had a look at SX and Nuendo and something in me goes "Nuh". Can't really explain it. I may feel differently in 12 months. For some reason I found Nuendo 1.5 easier to use than SX.
Cakewalk seems a fine program also, especially now it's VST compatible. But not this time, for me.
After reading the posts here, I'll go ahead and get Acid Pro 4. There's no substitute for personal experience and I'd better get some. I'm always a bit nervous about "wasting" money but it seems that if Acid/Sound Forge don't give me what I want, they'll still get used. I got sidetracked by salespeople but that's another story.
I did notice that SoFo software drops drastically from time to time over the net. Anybody know when another "special" is likely?
Many thanks to all
Cakewalk seems a fine program also, especially now it's VST compatible. But not this time, for me.
After reading the posts here, I'll go ahead and get Acid Pro 4. There's no substitute for personal experience and I'd better get some. I'm always a bit nervous about "wasting" money but it seems that if Acid/Sound Forge don't give me what I want, they'll still get used. I got sidetracked by salespeople but that's another story.
I did notice that SoFo software drops drastically from time to time over the net. Anybody know when another "special" is likely?
Many thanks to all
Yes, SoFo prices vary hugely. I bought AcidPro boxed online from the Australian company Harris Technology. From memory I think I paid A$595 (same price as they now have AP4).
When AcidPro4 was released SoFo had a special offer of US$149 which was excellent. They also had an upgrade price for AcidPro3 users of US$99. Of course I went for the upgrade - but it turns out it wasn't an upgrade, it was the full package.
Likewise I bought SoundForge6 for US$199 when it was first released.
I'm still extremely happy with those purchases.
I notice that SoFo is selling AcidPro4 online for US$399. That's a crazy price. Unfortunately AcidPro5 is probably still months away yet...
Why not go here and ask on the SoFo Acid board for the best shops ? I know there are quite a few Australians that drop in there.
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/Show ... ?ForumID=1
When AcidPro4 was released SoFo had a special offer of US$149 which was excellent. They also had an upgrade price for AcidPro3 users of US$99. Of course I went for the upgrade - but it turns out it wasn't an upgrade, it was the full package.
Likewise I bought SoundForge6 for US$199 when it was first released.
I'm still extremely happy with those purchases.
I notice that SoFo is selling AcidPro4 online for US$399. That's a crazy price. Unfortunately AcidPro5 is probably still months away yet...
Why not go here and ask on the SoFo Acid board for the best shops ? I know there are quite a few Australians that drop in there.
http://www.sonicfoundry.com/forums/Show ... ?ForumID=1
regarding acid and other programs recording.
i have noticed that when you are "right on the edge" with what you are pumping through your computer, recording into acid (even if it is the only thing you use it for) is much less likely to cause a PCI overflow or other evil than recording into sound forge.(or any other app)
i may be wrong but i think it is because acid records directly to hard disk rather than wasting memory, it is a very well designed and executed app for what it does..
LONG LIVE ACID!
i have noticed that when you are "right on the edge" with what you are pumping through your computer, recording into acid (even if it is the only thing you use it for) is much less likely to cause a PCI overflow or other evil than recording into sound forge.(or any other app)
i may be wrong but i think it is because acid records directly to hard disk rather than wasting memory, it is a very well designed and executed app for what it does..
LONG LIVE ACID!
Thanks for those comments Neutron. I appreciate all the experience you folks have. But now I have another dillemma. What should I buy first? The price on the Mix 'n Master group looks great at the moment. Anybody else noticed.....
Dear Santa...........
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikka on 2003-09-04 07:33 ]</font>
Dear Santa...........
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikka on 2003-09-04 07:33 ]</font>