Does anybody here at Z have any tips on reasonably decent gear to record vocals?
I have a Shure SM-58 which I was going to use after hearing it was a decent vocal mic but also thought do I need anything like a "windshield" to stop all the popping that may arise from performing vocals. Any suggestions on this area?
Hopefully someone will know what I mean? If you don't have any idea what I am gettin at then maybe you could post your method/gear that you use?
Any suggestions greatfully received.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: deejaysly on 2003-08-27 18:20 ]</font>
Recording Vocals
Yes, sm58 is a good vocal mic - for live purposes. But in a studio you'd like a more sophisticated mic. For example, Audio technica has some good quality mics in price range 200-500 euros.
Also, you'd like something like this: http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/thoiw3_ ... 06995.html
Pantyhose will do OK, too
EDIT: Oh, almost forgot, you'll surely want a quality mic pre. Depending on your needs and budget, think of paying from 300 to 3000 euros.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-27 19:18 ]</font>
Also, you'd like something like this: http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/thoiw3_ ... 06995.html
Pantyhose will do OK, too
EDIT: Oh, almost forgot, you'll surely want a quality mic pre. Depending on your needs and budget, think of paying from 300 to 3000 euros.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-27 19:18 ]</font>
Thanks for your reply, spoimala. I just had a brief look around and came across Audio Technica as you suggested and Rode NT1?
Do you have anything for recording vocals spoimala?
Would be nice to hear about other pulsarians vocal configurations also.
I have read about the basic do's and don'ts when recording vocals but my first attempt at recording vocals is coming up very shortly.
P.S. Its weird. Of everything we talk about this is a topic that I don't hear much about on Z.
Do you have anything for recording vocals spoimala?
Would be nice to hear about other pulsarians vocal configurations also.
I have read about the basic do's and don'ts when recording vocals but my first attempt at recording vocals is coming up very shortly.
P.S. Its weird. Of everything we talk about this is a topic that I don't hear much about on Z.
in case you still want to give the SM58 a chance the Kawai EQ-8 may be the perfect buddy for your mic.
It is a very low noise parametric EQ containing 8 'patchable' stages (2 with mic input level). I bought it for 50 bucks 2nd hand in a guitar store (mostly for curiosity's sake), but was happily surprised by it's sound quality.
The unit is able to polish the output of a REALLY pale piano expander in a pleasing way, so I would trust it on vocals, too.
cheers, Tom
It is a very low noise parametric EQ containing 8 'patchable' stages (2 with mic input level). I bought it for 50 bucks 2nd hand in a guitar store (mostly for curiosity's sake), but was happily surprised by it's sound quality.
The unit is able to polish the output of a REALLY pale piano expander in a pleasing way, so I would trust it on vocals, too.
cheers, Tom
Right now I don't have anything worth mentioning. I have been told to avoid Rode mics... from many different sources. Their highs are messy.
As soon as I get the money, I'm buying this for my first real vocal mic : http://www.audiotechnica.com/prodpro/pr ... T4040.html
And for pre I'm considering this : http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaroute2/pages/vprods/pa1.htm
And when I'm rich, I'll get this pair: http://www.bluemic.com/images_products/blueberry.htm
http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaroute2/pages/vprods/vp1.htm
After significant amount of research and discussions I ended up with these. If anyone has any comments, let me hear.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-28 05:05 ]</font>
As soon as I get the money, I'm buying this for my first real vocal mic : http://www.audiotechnica.com/prodpro/pr ... T4040.html
And for pre I'm considering this : http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaroute2/pages/vprods/pa1.htm
And when I'm rich, I'll get this pair: http://www.bluemic.com/images_products/blueberry.htm
http://www.tlaudio.co.uk/tlaroute2/pages/vprods/vp1.htm
After significant amount of research and discussions I ended up with these. If anyone has any comments, let me hear.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spoimala on 2003-08-28 05:05 ]</font>
-
marcuspocus
- Posts: 2310
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Canada/France
I don't know who told you to avoid Rode but this is complete BS.
Check a review in sound on sound about the rode NTK. They are compared very favorably to Neuman mics cost 10 times the price.
And this was not just a subjective test, but with spectrometer charts and recorded response comparaisons in a controled recording studio environment.
I own a NT1000, it is totaly fabulous. Specialy for vocals or classical guitars. If the highs are messy it's probably the preamp that mess it or converters or something else, don't know.
In the studio we have 2 x NT1000 + 1 x NT2A
They're great. I would check also Octavia.
Anyway, this is my .02$
Check a review in sound on sound about the rode NTK. They are compared very favorably to Neuman mics cost 10 times the price.
And this was not just a subjective test, but with spectrometer charts and recorded response comparaisons in a controled recording studio environment.
I own a NT1000, it is totaly fabulous. Specialy for vocals or classical guitars. If the highs are messy it's probably the preamp that mess it or converters or something else, don't know.
In the studio we have 2 x NT1000 + 1 x NT2A
They're great. I would check also Octavia.
Anyway, this is my .02$
Seems to me this topic has been covered here before. A quick search would probably produce results. Anyway, I do a lot of vocal recording here in my studio. I'll give you a few suggestions based on what I have and use daily.
If you're on a tight budget (who isn't these days) then consider one of the Chinese-built large diaphragm condensor mics. There are a ton of these things flooding the market right now. Quite a few of them come from a single factory in China. They all kinda look the same - just the brand name may change or the colors are slightly different. Apex was one brand name that comes to mind. At one point, I had a couple of Apex condensors in my possession which sounded great. Oktava, which is a Russian brand, also makes great sounding and inexpensive mics. Check MusiciansFriend.com for more examples. You should be able to pick one up for under $200 USD.
Don't discount your SM58 too quickly. I've recorded some killer vocal tracks with dynamic mics. The whole trick to all of this is to properly match the mic to the singer. The more mics you have in your arsenal, the more flexability you have to choose the best mic for the job. I have one of those dual-mic arms that attach to the end of a boom mic stand. If I'm uncertain which mic to use for a singer, I'll mount two different mics on this attachment and record two separate vocal tracks, then keep the one that sounds best.
A pop filter is almost mandatory. You can make one out of coat hangar and pantyhose. You do have some pantyhose in your dresser drawer right?
Just bend the coat hangar into a circle and stretch the pantyhose tightly across the circle. How you attach it to the mic stand is up to you (I suppose duct tape is as good a method as anything). The better commercial pop filters aren't that expensive really and are probably a good investment. I have one here that is going on 5 years old with no signs of letting up any time soon. There's nothing really to wear out but I suppose the nylon will disintegrate over time and have to be replaced. Still, considering I only paid around $30 for it originally, I'd say I've gotten my money's worth out of it. I usually position the filter about 3-4 inches in front of the mic. Another "even cheaper" method is to tape a pencil to the mic such that the pencil slightly blocks the diaphragm. Anything that blocks or deflects the plosives will work as long as it doesn't hurt the remaining frequencies too much.
As far as mic pre's - again - many good inexpensive units out there. For sheer cheapness, you can't beat the ART Tube MP units. I have a few of these and absolutely love them. A lot of companies have copied the design (dbx, Behringer, etc.). You can get these things on Ebay for about half the price. They will really warm up the sound before going through your AD convertors. As you step up from there, the sky is the limit. Each model or brand has their own character and the only way to know for sure is to try it and listen to the results for yourself. If you can afford it, try to get something with a built-in compressor since vocals usually need a bit of taming before going into the 'puter. Depends on the singer and how good their breath control is.
The final concept - and one rarely discussed - is the actual performance itself. Singers need to be in the right frame of mind sometimes. You can have the greatest equipment in the world but if the singer is bored, or uncomfortable or whatever, the vocal track is going to be hurt and no amount of gizmos will help.
There really isn't a whole lot of mystery to recording vocal tracks. Find the right mic (or make do with whatever you can obtain) and use a decent mic pre. Mind your gain staging!
A good professional singer will come in and nail parts in one or two takes and usually there isn't much I have to do to the tracks. Amateurs, on the other hand, pose the biggest problem because they suffer from a variety of mouth-noise problems or poor technique and that makes the mixers' job much harder because now you have to employ tricks or gadgetry to fix the tracks.
a few other suggestions:
* have the singer sing "up" into the mic if possible. It opens the throat and allows air to move more freely
* treat the room so that it is fairly dead and then use whatever reverbs you want. You can also experiment with mirrors or having the singer sing "into" a flat reflective surface. Then you mic the surface and maybe blend that with another direct mic.
* doubling or "multing" the vocal tracks gives you the ability to layer the tracks for a nice rich sound. Takes some patience and control to sing the same thing over and over again. Few vocalists I've worked with have the patience to do more than 2 or 3 tracks. It doesn't take more than this to create that "layered" sound that is almost impossible to create electronically. Well, maybe there is a device out there that does that but I'm old school and prefer the natural approach. I think it sounds better.
Good luck finding the right stuff!
If you're on a tight budget (who isn't these days) then consider one of the Chinese-built large diaphragm condensor mics. There are a ton of these things flooding the market right now. Quite a few of them come from a single factory in China. They all kinda look the same - just the brand name may change or the colors are slightly different. Apex was one brand name that comes to mind. At one point, I had a couple of Apex condensors in my possession which sounded great. Oktava, which is a Russian brand, also makes great sounding and inexpensive mics. Check MusiciansFriend.com for more examples. You should be able to pick one up for under $200 USD.
Don't discount your SM58 too quickly. I've recorded some killer vocal tracks with dynamic mics. The whole trick to all of this is to properly match the mic to the singer. The more mics you have in your arsenal, the more flexability you have to choose the best mic for the job. I have one of those dual-mic arms that attach to the end of a boom mic stand. If I'm uncertain which mic to use for a singer, I'll mount two different mics on this attachment and record two separate vocal tracks, then keep the one that sounds best.
A pop filter is almost mandatory. You can make one out of coat hangar and pantyhose. You do have some pantyhose in your dresser drawer right?
Just bend the coat hangar into a circle and stretch the pantyhose tightly across the circle. How you attach it to the mic stand is up to you (I suppose duct tape is as good a method as anything). The better commercial pop filters aren't that expensive really and are probably a good investment. I have one here that is going on 5 years old with no signs of letting up any time soon. There's nothing really to wear out but I suppose the nylon will disintegrate over time and have to be replaced. Still, considering I only paid around $30 for it originally, I'd say I've gotten my money's worth out of it. I usually position the filter about 3-4 inches in front of the mic. Another "even cheaper" method is to tape a pencil to the mic such that the pencil slightly blocks the diaphragm. Anything that blocks or deflects the plosives will work as long as it doesn't hurt the remaining frequencies too much.
As far as mic pre's - again - many good inexpensive units out there. For sheer cheapness, you can't beat the ART Tube MP units. I have a few of these and absolutely love them. A lot of companies have copied the design (dbx, Behringer, etc.). You can get these things on Ebay for about half the price. They will really warm up the sound before going through your AD convertors. As you step up from there, the sky is the limit. Each model or brand has their own character and the only way to know for sure is to try it and listen to the results for yourself. If you can afford it, try to get something with a built-in compressor since vocals usually need a bit of taming before going into the 'puter. Depends on the singer and how good their breath control is.
The final concept - and one rarely discussed - is the actual performance itself. Singers need to be in the right frame of mind sometimes. You can have the greatest equipment in the world but if the singer is bored, or uncomfortable or whatever, the vocal track is going to be hurt and no amount of gizmos will help.
There really isn't a whole lot of mystery to recording vocal tracks. Find the right mic (or make do with whatever you can obtain) and use a decent mic pre. Mind your gain staging!
A good professional singer will come in and nail parts in one or two takes and usually there isn't much I have to do to the tracks. Amateurs, on the other hand, pose the biggest problem because they suffer from a variety of mouth-noise problems or poor technique and that makes the mixers' job much harder because now you have to employ tricks or gadgetry to fix the tracks.
a few other suggestions:
* have the singer sing "up" into the mic if possible. It opens the throat and allows air to move more freely
* treat the room so that it is fairly dead and then use whatever reverbs you want. You can also experiment with mirrors or having the singer sing "into" a flat reflective surface. Then you mic the surface and maybe blend that with another direct mic.
* doubling or "multing" the vocal tracks gives you the ability to layer the tracks for a nice rich sound. Takes some patience and control to sing the same thing over and over again. Few vocalists I've worked with have the patience to do more than 2 or 3 tracks. It doesn't take more than this to create that "layered" sound that is almost impossible to create electronically. Well, maybe there is a device out there that does that but I'm old school and prefer the natural approach. I think it sounds better.
Good luck finding the right stuff!
Thought I'd add a few more comments about the different mics I own or have used before.
Studio Projects - I have a C1. It's nice but very bright. I rarely use it unless the singer tends to swallow their "F's" and "S's". Then I'll use it to get way, way down there into the throat. It comes with a nice case. The nickle plating on mine tends to corrode easily. I'd say avoid these mics as a first choice. I bought mine because there were raving reviews by certain people in different forums. Everyone was comparing this mic to a Nuemann U87 but frankly, this mic can't touch a Nuemann U87.
AKG414B - if you can afford it, you should get one of these. There simply isn't a better mic for vocals. They are an industry standard. Being able to control the polar pattern is a plus. Nice smooth silky top end that flatters most singers.
Shure KSM32 - this is often the first mic I'll use because I've found it works well on most singers and I kinda like the design. So I'll often start with this mic and then try something else if it ain't working. Shure can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. Has anyone ever used a Shure mic they didn't like?
Neumann TLM103 - As far as I'm concerned, Neumann is the BMW of microphones. This model has a slightly darker quality to it so I'll usually use this if the singer is highly sibilant or has any strident tonality to their voice. What is it with Germans and audio? And cars? And beer?
CAD Equitek 100 - I have a couple of these but I don't think they are being produced anymore. I love them! Razor flat frequency response. They add nothing nor take anything away. Can be used on anything. I've miked guitar cabs and kick drums with these mics. There is no application where they don't work. The only thing I didn't care about them is the rechargable batteries. Eventually, the batteries have to be replaced but I guess that is a minor issue. The mics do not work without the batteries, even with phantom power applied. As vocal mics they are great but like any other mic, need to be matched to the singer. Because they are so unforgiving, the singer must have a pretty controlled style.
Apex - I mentioned these before. A friend let me borrow a matched pair one time and I was very impressed with the sound quality. Low cost and they sounded great. Didn't care for the matching shock-mount clips that came with them. Kinda cheapo clothes-pin style clamps but they worked and that's all that mattered.
Oktava - never used their large diaphragm mics but I have bunch of the MK012 pencil mics. Great sound but I've seen these things die mysteriously for no reason whatsoever. Approach with caution is all I will say about this brand.
SM57/58 - As I mentioned before, I've recorded some great vocal tracks with these mics. Depends on the singer. These seem to work best with those gravely-voiced male bar band singers. The types that smoke and drink too much and sound like Rod Stewart or Lemmy after a bad hang-over
Rode - never used one but I've heard nothing but good things about them. Worth investigating as a good first choice.
Good luck!
Studio Projects - I have a C1. It's nice but very bright. I rarely use it unless the singer tends to swallow their "F's" and "S's". Then I'll use it to get way, way down there into the throat. It comes with a nice case. The nickle plating on mine tends to corrode easily. I'd say avoid these mics as a first choice. I bought mine because there were raving reviews by certain people in different forums. Everyone was comparing this mic to a Nuemann U87 but frankly, this mic can't touch a Nuemann U87.
AKG414B - if you can afford it, you should get one of these. There simply isn't a better mic for vocals. They are an industry standard. Being able to control the polar pattern is a plus. Nice smooth silky top end that flatters most singers.
Shure KSM32 - this is often the first mic I'll use because I've found it works well on most singers and I kinda like the design. So I'll often start with this mic and then try something else if it ain't working. Shure can do no wrong as far as I'm concerned. Has anyone ever used a Shure mic they didn't like?
Neumann TLM103 - As far as I'm concerned, Neumann is the BMW of microphones. This model has a slightly darker quality to it so I'll usually use this if the singer is highly sibilant or has any strident tonality to their voice. What is it with Germans and audio? And cars? And beer?
CAD Equitek 100 - I have a couple of these but I don't think they are being produced anymore. I love them! Razor flat frequency response. They add nothing nor take anything away. Can be used on anything. I've miked guitar cabs and kick drums with these mics. There is no application where they don't work. The only thing I didn't care about them is the rechargable batteries. Eventually, the batteries have to be replaced but I guess that is a minor issue. The mics do not work without the batteries, even with phantom power applied. As vocal mics they are great but like any other mic, need to be matched to the singer. Because they are so unforgiving, the singer must have a pretty controlled style.
Apex - I mentioned these before. A friend let me borrow a matched pair one time and I was very impressed with the sound quality. Low cost and they sounded great. Didn't care for the matching shock-mount clips that came with them. Kinda cheapo clothes-pin style clamps but they worked and that's all that mattered.
Oktava - never used their large diaphragm mics but I have bunch of the MK012 pencil mics. Great sound but I've seen these things die mysteriously for no reason whatsoever. Approach with caution is all I will say about this brand.
SM57/58 - As I mentioned before, I've recorded some great vocal tracks with these mics. Depends on the singer. These seem to work best with those gravely-voiced male bar band singers. The types that smoke and drink too much and sound like Rod Stewart or Lemmy after a bad hang-over
Rode - never used one but I've heard nothing but good things about them. Worth investigating as a good first choice.
Good luck!
I use an M69! Suits my voice and good for close-up vox. Otherwise my NT3 is more than adequate. A nice pre-amp is essential though....... This has all been mentioned before in older threads.
Cheers
Oh and of course pantyhose and a coat hanger!!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ricardo on 2003-08-29 10:55 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ricardo on 2003-09-02 09:16 ]</font>
Cheers
Oh and of course pantyhose and a coat hanger!!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ricardo on 2003-08-29 10:55 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ricardo on 2003-09-02 09:16 ]</font>
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
I'm using a beta 58a. I've been using it for the past 5 years so I've sort of learned it down to its bones. There's a bunch of tricks you can do with axis alignment and distance, plus in combination with my focusrite vocalmaster (the older version) I can create a lot of variations in sound. The preamp really made a huge difference in my case. It's like, all of a sudden I was getting crystal clear vocals.
Also, as krizrox said, performance is key to good vocal sound. You gotta have the vocalist sing good in the first place. It's like magic working with a good singer... they're so fast at learning melodies, and also making controled performance variations. People who suck on the other hand have to rely on chance. I can do main vocals and chorus in about 5 hours with a good singer, where as an amature would take a couple of days. (including practice days) The resulting sound is still quite different. So, that's something to keep in mind.
Also, as krizrox said, performance is key to good vocal sound. You gotta have the vocalist sing good in the first place. It's like magic working with a good singer... they're so fast at learning melodies, and also making controled performance variations. People who suck on the other hand have to rely on chance. I can do main vocals and chorus in about 5 hours with a good singer, where as an amature would take a couple of days. (including practice days) The resulting sound is still quite different. So, that's something to keep in mind.
Hello Krizrox,On 2003-08-28 09:40, krizrox wrote:
.....
* have the singer sing "up" into the mic if possible. It opens the throat and allows air to move more freely
.....
Saw this after your recent link to this thread.
Just wanted to comment on this because I tend not to recommend doing this with the vocalists I work with.
The main reason is singing upwards stretches and restricts the vocal cords (not good for them) and also changes the natural tone of the voice. So although I'll usually put the microphone a bit above and tilted back to help with pops and sssss's, I'll still get the vocalist to sing straight and not up into into the mic.
To stop the vocalist tending to sing up I keep the pop shield directly in front and level with their mouth and tell them to sing at the middle of the pop shield. This gives them something to aim at.
This has worked very well for me.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bassdude on 2003-09-14 22:46 ]</font>
bassdude
I thought, that would be misunderstood. You are perfectly right. I will explain more in details. The singer should sing horisontally out (like normally), but the microphone is pointing down at the singers mouth. This way, the singer will sing off-axis of the microphone, witch leads to a high frequency roll off. Also you will get less pop-sounds from the air comming out of the singers mouth.
So the singer should sing straight out, but the microphone should point down at the singers mouth (thus you can say, that the singer sings up into the microphone, even though the singer does not sing UP).
I thought, that would be misunderstood. You are perfectly right. I will explain more in details. The singer should sing horisontally out (like normally), but the microphone is pointing down at the singers mouth. This way, the singer will sing off-axis of the microphone, witch leads to a high frequency roll off. Also you will get less pop-sounds from the air comming out of the singers mouth.
So the singer should sing straight out, but the microphone should point down at the singers mouth (thus you can say, that the singer sings up into the microphone, even though the singer does not sing UP).
I understand what you guys are saying about singing upwards. I wasn't suggesting the singer tilt his head up by more than a few degrees.
I'll usually ask the singer before I position the mic what is the most natural position for them. Then I'll position the mic based on their feedback. Grungy death metal singers seem to like their head pointed downward for more growl. I guess it depends on the style of music.
Keep the ideas & suggestions coming! I love reading about this stuff.
I'll usually ask the singer before I position the mic what is the most natural position for them. Then I'll position the mic based on their feedback. Grungy death metal singers seem to like their head pointed downward for more growl. I guess it depends on the style of music.
Keep the ideas & suggestions coming! I love reading about this stuff.
-
Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
Why am I thinking of Lemmy all of a sudden?* have the singer sing "up" into the mic if possible. It opens the throat and allows air to move more freely
How on Earth do Behringer do it:
http://www.behringer.com/02_products/pr ... 0&lang=eng
£65 for what seems to be quite a good mic preamp with some impressive features.
Reviews of this kit are pretty favorable...not 'professional' quality to be sure, but if you're on a budget!?
Although I wouldn't class myself as a 'singer' (I'm sure many would agree!) I find the time of day has a dramatic effect on my vocals / range. I tend to be able to hit Zappa-esque low notes first thing in the morning (leaning towards infrasound), but later on in the day, I can't get that low.
Royston
-
hubird
sorry Lemke, not agree!
crystal clear here!
great pro reviews I've seen also.
I can recommand it as top for that price.
edit: Counterparts interfered, I was refering to Lemke of course
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-09-16 10:52 ]</font>
crystal clear here!
great pro reviews I've seen also.
I can recommand it as top for that price.
edit: Counterparts interfered, I was refering to Lemke of course
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2003-09-16 10:52 ]</font>
-
Gordon Gekko
- Posts: 1105
- Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: paname