Midi Controllers - Soft Takeover

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:00 pm

Can anyone help with this...

Is there a way to set midi controllers in SFP so they do not jump when you start to move a slider or knob? Or, in other words, the controller doesn't do anything until you move it past the current setting in the device.

I know a lot of software synths have this option - all of the Native Instruments synths have this feature. Is it possible in SFP (I haven't been able to figured out how to do it yet).

Thank you.

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:05 am

Does nobody else see this as an issue - or know a solution? Any help would be much appreciated.

Post by **Neil B** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 12:06 pm

It's not that I don't see it as an isue Huffcw - it's more down to methods of working. What software are you isng for recording? That may provide a solution.
I use Cubase and on any midi track I create the controller codes that I require. So if a new track is supposed to start with, for instance, the cut-off filter set to 70, that is the first midi message that the part transmits. It can also be easily edited at any time.
I also use a Kenton Control Freak externally to record the movements and there is a key combination on that that restricts change until you need it.
I'm not sure if this has been any help, but as I say, it is down to methods of working.
Neil

borg · Post by **borg** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:04 pm

i think you need a controller like the doepfer 'pocket dial' (not sure, there's another model looking quite the same, but without the feature) or native instruments '4knob'. these are controllers with 'infinite' pods. doepfer's website has a chart of apps that respond to the 'relative data'. i believe SFP is one of them.

sorry if you already knew this...

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:45 pm

the IBK 10-Control is a more sophisticated version of an incremental controller.
In the link below there's a hint that Pulsar keeps the controller informed about parameter changes done in the software.
I've no idea what's exactly happening or why that's needed in an incremental controller, but the device has been mentioned frequently with Pulsar.
http://www.musik-service.de/ProduX/Keys ... rol_EN.htm
btw : musik-service may offer Pulsar specials longer than CW's online shop.
Nice dudes, delivered the full CD version of Modular III including SFP for the price of the online update.

cheers, Tom

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:45 pm

Yeah - I am aware that the Creamware devices will respond appropriately to controllers with infinite dials. However, this is very limiting - as far as what controllers you can use with the system. I would rather not have to carry along more equipment (in addition to the keyboard I prefer to use as a controller).

SFP is suppose to be about ultimate flexibility, right. Therefore, I would like to see a soft takeover feature implemented in a future release of SFP. Many software synths have this - so why not SFP as well? It would benefit all users, because then you can use whatever controller you prefer without the problem of jumps.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:20 pm

I didn't rtfm

and I'm shure it's mentioned somewhere :
the GUI actually sends controllers to the midi out of the device if a controller is assigned to a knob or fader.
There are possibly more controllers (not only the 10-Control) processing the response of the controlled device.
At least it's an interesting discovery for me

gonna try it with my mixer (which has that soft takeover feature)

cheers, Tom

Satosh · Post by **Satosh** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:02 pm

From Doepfer's pages:
(http://www.doepfer.de/controller/compatible_list.htm)

The device can send these controllers. [In our case to the SFP environment.]

Controller Increment: BnH 60H xxH
Controller Decrement: BnH 61H xxH

xx: controller to increment. n: channel.

Would this be possible with sfp? Would sfp understand these messages? They are yet not a very conventionalized standard, but it's a beautiful feature if implemented... Creamware's cards are listed as

keine Angaben -
no information available

in the coulumn for possibility to understand these kind of relative messages. Has anyone tried this? Would really be cool...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Satosh on 2003-02-21 19:03 ]</font>

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:55 am

AFAIK, CW only uses B<channel>H <cc# number>H <controller value>H for control change syntax.

Someone tell me I'm wrong!

Satosh · Post by **Satosh** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 2:44 pm

So you believe that the Doepfer-controller "Pocket Dial" can function with SFP?

http://www.doepfer.de/pd_tec_e.htm

Jump-free parameter changes
->1. Pocket Dial transmits Increment / Decrement Data

One more question:

Does SFP take 14-bit controllers or just 8/7 bits?

Satosh

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:02 pm

What about a device that allows soft takeover to be placed inbetween the midi input and the synth/mixer??? In that case, any midi controller could be used effectively. Seems easier the worring about getting a controller that may or may not work with SFP.

I would like to see Creamware implement soft takeover within the SFP environment. But, if it is possible for a third-party device to do it somehow, that would be great. Anyone know if it would be possible?

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:44 pm

I have DOEPFER Pocket Dial. It works with SFP. Of course you have to use Midi out of the synth you want to control. It takes a bit time to get the right feeling for the knobs - it makes a difference if you turn them fast or slow.
Greetz, Thomas

Satosh · Post by **Satosh** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:46 am

Herr Voigt, good to know that this way to do it will work, but I would like to use the midi in of Pocket Dial as a merger from my Master keyboard, which implies that I can not send data from the synths and devices I want to control (my master keyboard doesn't have merging capabilities).

That is why I'd like to know if you can use Pocket Dial in "relative mode". (send increase/decrease messages instead of absolute values after feedback from the synth you want to control; http://www.doepfer.de/pd_tec_e.htm#Jump-free Parameter Changes ). Have you tried this with SFP? I hope I haven't misunderstood something...

Satosh

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Satosh on 2003-02-25 05:48 ]</font>

tomas · Post by **tomas** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 12:21 pm

Hi satosh,
i don't know if i understand you right.
So if you want to use pocket diel as a merger it works.
I had connected my masterkeyboard to midi in of my pocket dial and it worked.
Only problem i had was that my midikeyboard ( roland pc-200mk ) sends allways midimessages ( active sends ). I don't know why.
Maybe someone can tell it me.

b.r.t.m.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:58 pm

my Kawai does the same 'active sensing'.
Afaik that information may be used to reinitialise a hanging unit (which stops sending a.s.) by some master controller, but I'm not shure about the details.
The Anatek Pocketmerger is a nice little unit about the size of cigarette box, no need for a powersupply.
Recently picked one up for 10 bucks in shop where they couldn't make any sense what it was used for

cheers, Tom

Satosh · Post by **Satosh** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:55 pm

Tomas, thanks for the info!
What I'm trying to find out is if I have to connect midi out of SFP to the Pocket Dial. (For the Pocket Dial to know the controller values in SFP to avoid jumps). I'd rather not. According to you, it isn't necessary, just what I was hoping. Just to clear up: Do you use the "relative mode" of the Pocket Dial? Or do you have jumps of value when you remotely control something for the first time?

Just eager to know if the Pocket Dial functions in "relative mode" (jump-less controlling) with SFP, because the web-site of Doepfer says they have "no information available" weather SFP understands relative messages or not. If it functions like I believe it to, I'll buy it, but I need to have it confirmed by you first.

See you!

Satosh

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Tue Feb 25, 2003 6:47 pm

Hi Satosh,

imho the "relative mode" of Pocket dial only works when you connect the midi out of the sfp synth to midi in of the Doepfer. Without this feedback it seems not possible to avoid jumps.
Why do you want to connect your masterkeyboard with Pocket Dial midi in? I don't see any sense. If you need a merger, get a small and cheap one, for example a Philip Rees. But to work without jumps, you need midi out AND midi in of the pocket dial.
Hope I could help.

Greetz, Thomas

Satosh · Post by **Satosh** » Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:20 am

Hi!

As far as I can understand from

http://www.doepfer.de/pd_tec_e.htm#Jump-free Parameter Changes

you either have to use feedback (midi from sfp synth to pocket dial, OR use the relative mode. I'd like to use the relative mode instead of sending midi out of sfp.

[snip]
1. Pocket Dial transmits Increment / Decrement Data
In this case Pocket Dial does not "know" the absolute value of the parameter but transmits only the information data increment or data decrement.
[/snip]

Here is the list where it's stated that they don't know if sfp understands pocket dial's relative mode: http://www.doepfer.de/controller/tab.htm

Thanks for the help!

Satosh

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:55 pm

Hi Satosh,
now I've tried it several times to use the relative mode of my pocket dial, but CW synths don't seem to understand this.
The method with feedback (pulsar midi out to pocket dial midi in) works very fine.
If you absolutely want to use a hardware tool with relative mode, you shouldn't choose the doepfer.
Greetz, Thomas

huffcw · Post by **huffcw** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:53 am

It would just be much easier if this could be solved in software - with soft takeover module or feature in SFP. Then, any controller would work and we wouldn't have to go through all this trouble. We could use whatever controller and not have to compromise just so it will work properly with SFP.