Here's the start of a story on the BBC website:
The difference between a catchy tune and a dirge may be which part of the brain the notes activate, says a scientist.
Professor Peter Janata, of Dartmouth College, in the US, played a group of volunteers a series of keys and watched the way the brain responded.
He told the BBC: "One chunk of the brain was responding when the melody was in G major or E minor and another part of the circuit was responding when it was in E major for example."
Go here for the full text:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2572087.stm
Musical brain (news story link)
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ChrisWerner
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Yes that´s a nice part of science. I´ve read much about that and several musicans gave me hints on how the frequences should suggested to the audience. Some of that hints are in the Probe of Meditation track, it works.
For example, it is very important that you speak with your music to both ears seperately, the left ear will affect the right half of the brain, right ear the left half. When you move a sequence from left to right and back again and again, you will get a balanced feeling, when this sequence is only right you will get upset over the time.
Or that, if you play a note maybe a sine at 200Hz on the right side and another sine at 210Hz on the left side, both brain halfs will produce a 3rd phantom noise a Binaural Beat or HemiSync(c),Brain Sync in this case at 10Hz bpm.
Of course you can´t hear that noise, but a brain structure called Olivary Nucleus will resonance to the Binaural Beat.
A nice and long lasting Topic I think.
Sonic weapons, might of the musican etc.
I can collect some nice informations and post them here if you want.
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maybe you want start with a brain wave generator for windows?
http://www.bwgen.com/
Cu
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2002-12-13 10:22 ]</font>
For example, it is very important that you speak with your music to both ears seperately, the left ear will affect the right half of the brain, right ear the left half. When you move a sequence from left to right and back again and again, you will get a balanced feeling, when this sequence is only right you will get upset over the time.
Or that, if you play a note maybe a sine at 200Hz on the right side and another sine at 210Hz on the left side, both brain halfs will produce a 3rd phantom noise a Binaural Beat or HemiSync(c),Brain Sync in this case at 10Hz bpm.
Of course you can´t hear that noise, but a brain structure called Olivary Nucleus will resonance to the Binaural Beat.
A nice and long lasting Topic I think.
Sonic weapons, might of the musican etc.
I can collect some nice informations and post them here if you want.
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maybe you want start with a brain wave generator for windows?
http://www.bwgen.com/
Cu
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ChrisWerner on 2002-12-13 10:22 ]</font>
Impressive detail ! I'd be very interested on anything else you might have on this.
I once proposed putting together a three-piece electonic band: one plays synths and sampler; one plays abstract video and visual effects projected behind the group; and the third plays subsonic audio.
For obvious reasons this idea never happened, but I thought it would be a good academic exercise to see if the combination of colour and shape psychology and the well-known subsonic stomach, bowel and anxiety frequencies would actually work.
The audible third of the performance in this case would have been nothing more than a gross indicator of the more subtle remaining two-thirds.
I once proposed putting together a three-piece electonic band: one plays synths and sampler; one plays abstract video and visual effects projected behind the group; and the third plays subsonic audio.
For obvious reasons this idea never happened, but I thought it would be a good academic exercise to see if the combination of colour and shape psychology and the well-known subsonic stomach, bowel and anxiety frequencies would actually work.
The audible third of the performance in this case would have been nothing more than a gross indicator of the more subtle remaining two-thirds.
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kensuguro
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nevermind the details, the experiment will work. It's been known to work. Just any movie is a good example. It's got all 3 elements, and especially the subsonic channel's been put in there for a purpose. It's called a "whash" channel.
I've also given this topic quite some thought... the whole psychoacoustic thing.. and came to a conclusion. Ok, so there are binaural beats that you can tune to the brain's alpha waves. Yes, the brain reacts to certain sound "bands". Yes, the subsonics do alter hormone balances in the brain.
But it boils down to this. (rest are all opinions) These are the basic physiological properties of the ear, and the brain. This is the common denominator. These gimmicks are trans-cultural, trans-memory. Yes, these are the tricks that any musician should make use of.
On the other hand though, these gimmicks are all to simple. It goes as simple as realizing that people react to loud sounds. (sound familiar?) Or that people react to the bands of the vocal tracks... This is all a bit primal to me. A bit too simple.
Despite what I said in the early post, the strength of the human mind is in its power to relate things. To tie stimulous to memories. And as much as this may vary between every single listener, I think this is what I want to make use of. Of course, with regard to all the basic physiological stimulous.
Well, actually, the difference is similar to the ultimate choice between the significant and the signifier. (as per linguistics and semiotics)
Though, all these gimmicks obviously do work, and that you SHOULD make use of them, at the least.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-12-13 12:17 ]</font>
I've also given this topic quite some thought... the whole psychoacoustic thing.. and came to a conclusion. Ok, so there are binaural beats that you can tune to the brain's alpha waves. Yes, the brain reacts to certain sound "bands". Yes, the subsonics do alter hormone balances in the brain.
But it boils down to this. (rest are all opinions) These are the basic physiological properties of the ear, and the brain. This is the common denominator. These gimmicks are trans-cultural, trans-memory. Yes, these are the tricks that any musician should make use of.
On the other hand though, these gimmicks are all to simple. It goes as simple as realizing that people react to loud sounds. (sound familiar?) Or that people react to the bands of the vocal tracks... This is all a bit primal to me. A bit too simple.
Despite what I said in the early post, the strength of the human mind is in its power to relate things. To tie stimulous to memories. And as much as this may vary between every single listener, I think this is what I want to make use of. Of course, with regard to all the basic physiological stimulous.
Well, actually, the difference is similar to the ultimate choice between the significant and the signifier. (as per linguistics and semiotics)
Though, all these gimmicks obviously do work, and that you SHOULD make use of them, at the least.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-12-13 12:17 ]</font>
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kensuguro
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while I'm at it... here's an easy trick. It's used in waves' Maxbass. Most of you may know, some may not. It's called "the missing fundamental".
I think most of us are familiar with the partials. When the brain recieves a mixed signal, it always tries to search for the fundamental, that is, f0. So, if you give it a mixed signal of f1, f2, and maybe f3, you will actually hear f0, even though it's not there. And since f0 is an octave lower than f1, the listener seems to "hear" a tone that's an octave lower that what's actually present. Maxbass uses this trick to produce "psycho" bass sound, an octave below the actual signal present in the wav file. And since the lowest tones can be cut, Maxbass lowers the overall volume of the mix, thus opening up more headroom for more maximazation.
It might be hard to implement something like this on Pulsar, but it's definitely worth experimenting. Try it with a sine wav. You'll be amazed at how clearly you can hear a tone that's not even there.
I think most of us are familiar with the partials. When the brain recieves a mixed signal, it always tries to search for the fundamental, that is, f0. So, if you give it a mixed signal of f1, f2, and maybe f3, you will actually hear f0, even though it's not there. And since f0 is an octave lower than f1, the listener seems to "hear" a tone that's an octave lower that what's actually present. Maxbass uses this trick to produce "psycho" bass sound, an octave below the actual signal present in the wav file. And since the lowest tones can be cut, Maxbass lowers the overall volume of the mix, thus opening up more headroom for more maximazation.
It might be hard to implement something like this on Pulsar, but it's definitely worth experimenting. Try it with a sine wav. You'll be amazed at how clearly you can hear a tone that's not even there.
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paulrmartin
- Posts: 2445
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Been doing a bit of research about the rostromedial prefrontal cortex.
Can anybody confirm if this is at all associated with the brains pleasure center?
The document I found is way out of my league:
http://www.med.tohoku.ac.jp/~2sei/JN2002ho.pdf
_________________
Paul R. Martin - Are we listening?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2002-12-16 10:28 ]</font>
Can anybody confirm if this is at all associated with the brains pleasure center?
The document I found is way out of my league:
http://www.med.tohoku.ac.jp/~2sei/JN2002ho.pdf
_________________
Paul R. Martin - Are we listening?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: paulrmartin on 2002-12-16 10:28 ]</font>
Paul, it's roughly about something like this:
a band collegue shouts 'e-minor' to introduce a chord change
what parts of your brain are activated BEFORE you're actually strumming it on the guitar ?
is there an increased activity in certain parts of the brain depending on chord progression ?
they did it with apes and imho a 'pleasure center' was only involved as the animal needed some kind of rewarding.
Sometimes I really wonder to what level of stupidity otherwise 'educated' people are able to decend.
cheers, Tom
a band collegue shouts 'e-minor' to introduce a chord change
what parts of your brain are activated BEFORE you're actually strumming it on the guitar ?
is there an increased activity in certain parts of the brain depending on chord progression ?
they did it with apes and imho a 'pleasure center' was only involved as the animal needed some kind of rewarding.
Sometimes I really wonder to what level of stupidity otherwise 'educated' people are able to decend.
cheers, Tom
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paulrmartin
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Herr Voigt
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Ken, the trick with the partials is well known by builders of church organs.
Make a good partial row on an organ: 16', 8', 5 1/3', 4' etc.
Put a 10 2/3' to this. What do you hear? A virtual 32'!
For 100s of years they use it in mid-ranged church organs to receive a good fundamental bass. A real 32' costs very much money.
The other topic: A melody in G makes an other impression to me than a melody in E. Maybe that's why i hear absolutely (the transpose function on keyboards makes me crazy!), but every tonality has it's own character. When you compose, it's a big difference if you make melody and harmony in C or in Db.
Beethoven said, he sees in which tonality a melodie is composed originally!
A very interesting but also speculative topic. Btw, I have colors, that belong to tonalities. F major is royal-blue for me, Eb major is a solemn red, A major is a brite and warm green etc.
Surely that applies only to me, other people may have other colors.
Make a good partial row on an organ: 16', 8', 5 1/3', 4' etc.
Put a 10 2/3' to this. What do you hear? A virtual 32'!
For 100s of years they use it in mid-ranged church organs to receive a good fundamental bass. A real 32' costs very much money.
The other topic: A melody in G makes an other impression to me than a melody in E. Maybe that's why i hear absolutely (the transpose function on keyboards makes me crazy!), but every tonality has it's own character. When you compose, it's a big difference if you make melody and harmony in C or in Db.
Beethoven said, he sees in which tonality a melodie is composed originally!
A very interesting but also speculative topic. Btw, I have colors, that belong to tonalities. F major is royal-blue for me, Eb major is a solemn red, A major is a brite and warm green etc.
Surely that applies only to me, other people may have other colors.
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kensuguro
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well, it depends how you learned the the tones. Of some reason, you labeled the notes a specific number, word, color, or whatever, then your mind works in absolute mode. Yamaha in Japan's got quite a system to "teach" absolute hearing.. and I remember reading somewhere that Japan has the world's highest population of absolute listeners. Whether it's good for composition is a nother question though.
The tonality of the keys are quite different yes.... especially with real instruments. But with "virtual" instruments though... maybe there's some more to question about. Formants can be shifted... so timbre is out of the question... then, it becomes merely the pitch that is different.. I'm not sure how much difference that will make... What I'm saying is, a tune in G or A on a piano would definitely sound different (and affect the brain differently) while it may not matter much whether a tune is G or A if it's played only by sine waves.... the pitch still may have affect, but it might be along a different line than as in a real instrument's case.
I want to ask all the absolute listeners here, just out of curiosity. If a tune were to be played by 2 different instruments, but in the same key, how different would they sound to you? (playing all the same notes) It's probably not true, but I'm inclined to think that absolute listeners resort to pitch to characterize their works, while relative listeners resort to timbre to characterize their tunes, because of the lack of color they see in a spefic key. I'm probably wrong, but I hope you understand where I'm itching at. Any thoughts?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-12-17 01:32 ]</font>
The tonality of the keys are quite different yes.... especially with real instruments. But with "virtual" instruments though... maybe there's some more to question about. Formants can be shifted... so timbre is out of the question... then, it becomes merely the pitch that is different.. I'm not sure how much difference that will make... What I'm saying is, a tune in G or A on a piano would definitely sound different (and affect the brain differently) while it may not matter much whether a tune is G or A if it's played only by sine waves.... the pitch still may have affect, but it might be along a different line than as in a real instrument's case.
I want to ask all the absolute listeners here, just out of curiosity. If a tune were to be played by 2 different instruments, but in the same key, how different would they sound to you? (playing all the same notes) It's probably not true, but I'm inclined to think that absolute listeners resort to pitch to characterize their works, while relative listeners resort to timbre to characterize their tunes, because of the lack of color they see in a spefic key. I'm probably wrong, but I hope you understand where I'm itching at.
Any thoughts?<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-12-17 01:32 ]</font>
i think you're on the right track.i don't see all musical experience as absolute(or why are you bored by what i find most touching and/or deep?)i do see that the universe can be said to be vibration(as in string theory or hippy mentality)and that music must relate to that somehow.there is definitely something cultural as well as something primal going on.
can a brain(or an anus for that matter) truly and objectively examine it's self?
i have seen those nifty experiments where when a classical orchestra is arranged in the old manner of the time of some older classical pieces instead of the current modern seating order,completely different melodies and music are heard,even though the players are playing the same notes.that is an effect that can even be heard on film in mono.very cool.meaningless,except to those who wish to manipulate others,but very cool.
can a brain(or an anus for that matter) truly and objectively examine it's self?
i have seen those nifty experiments where when a classical orchestra is arranged in the old manner of the time of some older classical pieces instead of the current modern seating order,completely different melodies and music are heard,even though the players are playing the same notes.that is an effect that can even be heard on film in mono.very cool.meaningless,except to those who wish to manipulate others,but very cool.
My Christmas vacation just started. I have been a no-life for almost a month due to a heavy work-load on my study of Music Therapy. Though it has been insanely tough, I still feel priviledged to have the oportunity to study with some of the greatest teachers around. One of them is Tony Wigram. He has got a phd in the subject of Vibro Accoustics (about how low frequency sound affects humans). It is in the area of Music Medicine.
In one of his classes (is that the right word to put in here?), he showed us some of the many testresults he had gotten thru his phd. One interestingthing was, that there is NOT a direct relation between frequency and where in our body we feel it (he has a specially designed "bed" with 6 very powerfull speakers, that can produce massive ammounts of low frequency sound). Most people would feel 70Hz in a specific area - but not all - and the same person migth even feel the frequency in different places at different times.
... And BOOM chrashed some of my faith in Bio Accoustics, where
colors
body parts
astrology
frequencies
are united. I guess, I should have known, but it was a very flattering holistic theory. People are not homogenous static objects. We differ - from each other and over time from our selves.
--------------------------
Also it amazes me, that the scientist who made the study of wich areas are affect in wich situations, are not aware of previous scientific results, wich state that musicians' and non-musicians' brains work differently when listening to music (wich again is a generalisation - but a usefull one). The old talk about left/right brain part is definitely obsolete in this aspect.
I believe (now I leave teh scientific speach), that a some of the reason, why people hear different tonalities diferent has to do with the instrument being used. If a piece of music is written for guitar in E-minor, there will be a great chance, that the composer has made use of some of the very full sounds, wich are possible. If this piece was transposed into F-minor, the sound would change a lot. An ontouched string sound very different from a touched string. Some loose strings will become touched. Some touched strings will become loose. And a capo isn't realy the same as a truly untouched string. However if slightlyl ighter strings where used, and the guitar was tuned up ½ a note... What then? Already some classic guitarist tend to picth high to get more output from their instruments. Maybe the guitar tuned in F is pitched low... what then? I once for a short time had a classical guitar teacher. He played in a duo, and he told me, that they played less loud than guitarist would normally do. But the audience would addapt to the softer sounds - like most people addapt to loud sounds, and therefor "shout-talk" when going from a rock concert.
I must admit, though, that this is purely speculative talk, as I of now have not trained myself to recognice the tonality of a musical piece.
In one of his classes (is that the right word to put in here?), he showed us some of the many testresults he had gotten thru his phd. One interestingthing was, that there is NOT a direct relation between frequency and where in our body we feel it (he has a specially designed "bed" with 6 very powerfull speakers, that can produce massive ammounts of low frequency sound). Most people would feel 70Hz in a specific area - but not all - and the same person migth even feel the frequency in different places at different times.
... And BOOM chrashed some of my faith in Bio Accoustics, where
colors
body parts
astrology
frequencies
are united. I guess, I should have known, but it was a very flattering holistic theory. People are not homogenous static objects. We differ - from each other and over time from our selves.
--------------------------
Also it amazes me, that the scientist who made the study of wich areas are affect in wich situations, are not aware of previous scientific results, wich state that musicians' and non-musicians' brains work differently when listening to music (wich again is a generalisation - but a usefull one). The old talk about left/right brain part is definitely obsolete in this aspect.
I believe (now I leave teh scientific speach), that a some of the reason, why people hear different tonalities diferent has to do with the instrument being used. If a piece of music is written for guitar in E-minor, there will be a great chance, that the composer has made use of some of the very full sounds, wich are possible. If this piece was transposed into F-minor, the sound would change a lot. An ontouched string sound very different from a touched string. Some loose strings will become touched. Some touched strings will become loose. And a capo isn't realy the same as a truly untouched string. However if slightlyl ighter strings where used, and the guitar was tuned up ½ a note... What then? Already some classic guitarist tend to picth high to get more output from their instruments. Maybe the guitar tuned in F is pitched low... what then? I once for a short time had a classical guitar teacher. He played in a duo, and he told me, that they played less loud than guitarist would normally do. But the audience would addapt to the softer sounds - like most people addapt to loud sounds, and therefor "shout-talk" when going from a rock concert.
I must admit, though, that this is purely speculative talk, as I of now have not trained myself to recognice the tonality of a musical piece.
Information for new readers: A forum member named Braincell is known for spreading lies and malicious information without even knowing the basics of, what he is talking about. If noone responds to him, it is because he is ignored.
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Herr Voigt
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Immanuel, I agree with you: Transposing on a guitar with or without a capo changes the guitar sound because of formants etc.
But also on a well tempered tuned acoustic piano you feel the differences of various tonalitys.
I should make an experiment with classical pieces, but only with sine sounds or similar. Would be interesting.
Wayne, it is really astonishing that you have the same colors for some tonalities! What are your experiences with minor tonalities? They seem more difficult to me ...
Btw, I love your song "MonicaS". You and your band are a late and worthy follower of Gentle Giant (from the 70s, do you know them?)! Always when I hear such music, I become merry and jolly.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Herr Voigt on 2002-12-18 19:14 ]</font>
But also on a well tempered tuned acoustic piano you feel the differences of various tonalitys.
I should make an experiment with classical pieces, but only with sine sounds or similar. Would be interesting.
Wayne, it is really astonishing that you have the same colors for some tonalities! What are your experiences with minor tonalities? They seem more difficult to me ...
Btw, I love your song "MonicaS". You and your band are a late and worthy follower of Gentle Giant (from the 70s, do you know them?)! Always when I hear such music, I become merry and jolly.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Herr Voigt on 2002-12-18 19:14 ]</font>
Immanuel,
why do let such a nice point of view where
... colors, body parts, astrology, frequencies are united...
be shattered by an experiment whose result could be predicted by anyone with at least a minimum of common sense ?
The 'adaption' process is present nearly everwhere and imho it's the key to absolute hearing. Personally I'm far from that ability, but I experience that it's constantly improving the more I practice and listen. Btw since I'm doing a lot of bicycle riding on streets I can virtually identify a car behind by it's noise: distance, speed, kind of driver as the most important facts.
If it's of some importance one adopts to anything, so why not musical scales ?
Of course children learn most easily.
Ken's comment about the Yamaha teaching method is completely opposed to the musical education I got in high school.
In our system we're suffering from an 'Amadeus' syndrome. Either you're a prodigy or you simply don't have it - and will never get any chance. I hope this has improved though, as the success in Japan speaks for itself.
cheers, tom
why do let such a nice point of view where
... colors, body parts, astrology, frequencies are united...
be shattered by an experiment whose result could be predicted by anyone with at least a minimum of common sense ?
The 'adaption' process is present nearly everwhere and imho it's the key to absolute hearing. Personally I'm far from that ability, but I experience that it's constantly improving the more I practice and listen. Btw since I'm doing a lot of bicycle riding on streets I can virtually identify a car behind by it's noise: distance, speed, kind of driver as the most important facts.
If it's of some importance one adopts to anything, so why not musical scales ?
Of course children learn most easily.
Ken's comment about the Yamaha teaching method is completely opposed to the musical education I got in high school.
In our system we're suffering from an 'Amadeus' syndrome. Either you're a prodigy or you simply don't have it - and will never get any chance. I hope this has improved though, as the success in Japan speaks for itself.
cheers, tom
anything one healthy human can do,another can too.(though there are inclinations one way or the other..)
japan does seem to obsess...
i'm sure that different tunes and melodies do stimulate different parts of the brain.i'm sure that this info could be used to manipulate or inspire leaps of consiousness.WHY it is,and what's REALLY happening is shrouded in mystery.........
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2002-12-18 22:31 ]</font>
japan does seem to obsess...
i'm sure that different tunes and melodies do stimulate different parts of the brain.i'm sure that this info could be used to manipulate or inspire leaps of consiousness.WHY it is,and what's REALLY happening is shrouded in mystery.........
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2002-12-18 22:31 ]</font>
