3rd party plugins

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:04 pm

Personnaly, I think that CW has many surprises in store for us!

And if I'm wrong, then I love my CW setup as it is!

King of Snake · Post by **King of Snake** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:23 am

I ahve to agree with Spirit here: The CW boards are great bits of kits, and there are lots of great devices for it, most of which I don't even have the money for. Even if there would be zero development from now on, the Pulsar and it's devices will still be as usable as always. But wouldn't that be a shame? Pulsar is probably on of the most flexible and best sounding environments, and development in the audio world is not at a standstill, new technologies, methods of sound-generation and processing are always in development, and so they should be for Pulsar. Everybody likes new stuff that does new things, to open up more creativity, to do things you couldn't do before, to get sounds you couldn't get before. (Of course this is also part "gear-lust" which in some people is stronger than in others.) But the promise, the knowledge that new things will continue to be developed in the future strengthens the users (and the would-be users) faith in the platform. It's not just CW that makes the platform, but also the users, so why all the secrecy? Why the "wait and see, you will be surprised" attitude. Why not let the users know where we're going? We only knew about the Vinco what, a week before release? Is that good marketing? Will this be the same with all future releases, leave the users in the dark with vague hints until the very last moment?
All in all, this little rant doesn't make much sense really

, I'm really not disputiong the quality of the platform or the existing devices, but I think CW stance towards development and communication to the existing userbase is..well...questionable.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:06 am

Personally, I think it's usually pretty simple to figure out what's coming next from Creamware - and thats without any special inside information...

Here's how I see it:
Many moons ago at NAMM (2000?), Creamware showed the first "NOAH" prototypes - a keyboard with a touchscreen LCD running a SHARC DSP board. Fast forward to 2002, NOAH is announced... I thought of lots of things they could possibly run on a dedicated keyboard running SHARCS...

Physical modelling has been mentioned on the boards here, and you know that Creamware reads them (it was obvious to me at least, now it should be <a href=http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0&15>clear beyond any doubt</a>). My only thoughts were "isnt that patented by Yamaha or someone and wouldn't they have to license it?" But it would seem they would need more than 'virtual analog' to sell a keyboard especially with companies like Access and Waldorf around...

Then you can extrapolate now with the NOAH announcements that they are getting into more 'high end synthesis' - if the past is anything to go by, you can see these developments (physical modelling - plucked strings - etc) trickling down to our PCI cards at some point.

And anyone notice xTC was announced near the introduction of TC Powercore? And what else was released... UAD1. Creamware recently released VinCo. Anyone want to try to make a leap here and guess what they might work on next in regards to device development?

SFP unified the OS for all the cards. This makes delivering bug fixes to EVERYONE all at once much easier, and was the deciding factor for me to jump in head first. You can bet they will continue updating SFP and now, in a really nice move, they actually asked us what we thought were the most important issues to fix. Very nice change, very nice move, Creamware. I think I can speak for most of us and say this is exactly what we love seeing...

Also if anyone is curious go check the Ideas for Pulsar thread, and look at the dates at some of the suggestions... Creamware really impressed me, many of the best ideas are now available/implemented!

I've got a few more ideas, anyone else care to connect the dots and speculate further? It's not common in this industry to tell too far into the future because it gives competitors leads/ideas, but I think there are plenty of hints here and there to give a good indication of where Creamware is headed... maybe?

[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2002-06-28 09:08 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:40 pm

imho the secret service behavior is inevitable in this business today.
There's such a shameless stealing of ideas and reverse engineering that it's the only way left.
The big chance for DSP systems is that it's nearly impossible to disassemble the code to a useful form. What do you think would have happened if the UAD thing had been native pentium code ?

Spirit, don't be too afraid of the small number of CW developement staff.
Half a dozen enthusiasts who 'live their code' outperform any hired team of any size. This has to do with creativity and the power of feedback and motivation.
About 3 month ago I read an interview with one of the CW founders - pretty cool and self confident - they HAVE a concept for their future and intend to stay on the cutting edge

But I really have to express my respect on the amazing discussion style on this kind of 'Creamware' board

cheers, Tom

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:37 pm

Here's a more up to date list of so called 'active' developers. Please note that so called 'inactive' developers such as SPL, zplane etc, might eventually develope more for the system - have you bought any of their devices yet? That's how you vote for your favorites...

I don't really see a developer being 'inactive' as a bad thing - simply they have done the products they may have hoped to create. The only bad thing about an inactive developer is if they don't plan on fixing bugs that might come up, or making small changes to work in new software revisions... (careful of <a href=http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... pansion</a> in this regard).

Neutron - DeStortion, Midi2Joy, Micro3 Synth, to name just a few recent items.
http://www.neutron7.com

EarlyFirst - Free PT96K reverb which to my ears beats masterVerb in sound AND in DSP usage!

There are huge versions of these coming, with only the massive amounts of settings saved in presets holding their release back... (read about that here on the Z!)
http://www.earlyfirst.com

SpaceF - BlueFM, BlueNew(heh), FrogAmp, etc etc, to name recent items.
http://www.spacef.com

Celmo - ProDelay, ProTester, ReverbTester, CrossOver, XMachine.
http://www.celmo.com

Timeworks - Version 3 of their plugins for SFP out SOON!
http://www.sonictimeworks.com

Huicholity/mJerom - CombFilter2002, FeeMee FM Synth, Microbe Synth, ZS404 Synth, MaryJane Delay FX, and the FM4 Synth, etc.
http://www.huicholity.com

Zarg - They already have so many amazing device I wonder what else they could possibly come up with? Those Sequential Circuits devices sound really good to me. If you can expand your user base by 10 fold by also porting your algorithms to VSTi, and make more $, why not? Bowman can't write code (hence his limited dev on the Korg Oasys platform), he wouldn't be making synths without SCOPE/DP... http://www.zargmusic.com

Wavelength - recent drumrep (6-28-2002), miniMOD, etc... http://www.track0.com/wavelength

J9K Sys - A relatively new developer who has done some fresh things like Modular2 development, MIDI envelope device, and MIDI LFO device... I like his rogue style!

soon at: http://www.j9ksys.com

Design & Media - currently doing the STW v3 update and also finding time to give us some free devices like an excellent free multiband compressor, Voice channel, dsp meter, etc. On planetZ as kimgr. Check it out. http://www.d-media.dk/

grenz frequenz - related to Andre Dupke - free synths including Fun Sync, pay synth in Creamware's shop. Oddly enough, even though they are in the shop, they aren't listed on the 3rd party page ... http://www.grenzfrequenz.de/ and also http://www.hamburg-audio.de/

DeVice - makers of the Levil Devil, etc over here --> http://www.deviceplug-ins.com

SteckenLeiter - Exciter, Deeser, and maker of DSP modules usable by other developers of out platform (neutron uses some...) http://www.steckenleiter.de/

DADev (aka DSPdev) - recently did the Distortion Synthesis stuff and now after not being a /DP user seems to be branching into native. Definitely larger user base there.

AzyMute - A bunch of weird fx including a new one "WhAzymute eXtended" - http://www.azymute.com/

PM Mastering Studio - an occasional freebee ... not extremely active (at least to the public) but still doing stuff ...

So... hows that? I feel like I may be missing a few. But I also feel this is a pretty solid list of developers with many quality choices. Of course, I want more and hope to see ALL these guys continue to develop, and would ESPECIALLY like to see, at least from the "big names" more stuff from SPL, and something from ProSoniq, and possibly Quantec.

Creamware's most recent devices (say, the last 6 months or so) have also been on a whole new level, much better quality stuff...

So maybe you have a point Spirit - maybe they should update that page and include links to the guys in this post. It might make threads like this occur less frequently... or?

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:29 pm

Great work. I think a simple cut-and-paste into the CW site would improve their page by several orders of magnitude !

In the development field I'm really interested in the ModV3. Is there going to be one ? As I said earlier it could be completely dead for all anyone knows. "Third quarter 2002" maybe ? Those sort of "announcements of intention" are standard practice by most software companies (think Reaktor 3.3 or Reaktor Sessions announced three-quarters ahead). And in the advanced synthesis field will SFP ever get something Absynth-esque, that is, something creatively beyond the usual ADSR ? Hmmm... have I mentioned export to wav yet ?

j9k · Post by **j9k** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 7:55 pm

am i really the rogue developer?

[ This Message was edited by: j9k on 2002-06-28 20:56 ]

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:47 pm

It seems to me that you are talking about an “everybody-situation” here guys, cos you are not talking only about your own impression of the matter, but examining the topic from the heavens, I mean, from a wide-open perspective like if everyone would be in the same situation as you are. Unfortunately, the truth is another one…

I would like to add to this general idea, to this visualization of the plug-ins market, some rather Crude Realities…

Please, consider there are people from all countries who use the Pulsar platform, so lets say richer and poorer people to whom Pulsar means a completely different thing! Entirely! Please, do not mistake believing this means “professional” people and “non professional” people. This is a matter of involuntary circumstances, extremely complex to talk about to consider in detail. In fact, every country is, in its own right, a whole world.

So, I would like for you to consider that there are people like me, living in a quite poor country spending about 20 American dollars ***a week*** to eat, earning average wages of 200 American dollars per month… Can you imagine how much a plug-in like the Timeworks stuff costs to someone like me? Suddenly, the perspective of what you are talking has completely changed. Is Timeworks or any other company guilty about the price they demand for their work? I don’t think so really, just a little bit at times, but not us much as that cos competence keep them humble and down to earth to be able to keep alive. Unfortunately, the differences from country to country are great! These differences demands for everybody to accommodate to the circumstances, the guys doing the plug-ins should consider to work more for less, and those who can’t afford the price, to pay more money for something that, from their acquisitive power is extremely expensive, but I mean “extremely expensive”! It seems a contradiction what I have just said, but I think you understand what I mean. The perspective is entirely different.

I have a four DSP Pulsar I plus, Eliam has just *3*DSP, but we are happy with what we have cos we value it a lot.

I always have the same impression after this dissertation goes on and on, and is that we have far……….. toooooo much, so we are becoming blind with so much, but we never use it completely, we try it out enthusiastically for a few weeks, and then we pass to the next toy doing the same. Of course I would like to have more DSP power, even two SCOPE SRBs if possible, but I could die using just what I have, and I’ll still be very, very happy indeed! Just a consideration I think it’s important, cos the forum has all sort of members from everywhere in the world, and many people is not here in the Z just cos they don’t know English language or do not have an internet connection, but you can be sure that if they could understand English and having an internet connection, this forum would have about 6 o 7 thousand people already!

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:32 am

Interesting points Nestor. I believe that knowing just one or two applications REALLY well is better than getting a new device every week, and will get better results.

This too-many-toys philosophy is talked about even more in the VSTi world where there are way too many new devices coming out to even download and test them.

You could argue that in a way this is a waste and just a byproduct of capitalist commercialism which creates markets not through actual need of a product but from the perceived opportunity to make money from a product.

It vaguely reminds me of the pet-food areas in supermarkets: forty different types of catfood ! Is that really needed ?

Against that you have the power of competition and the entrepreneurial drive. It is competition which creates superior products. The state monopolies of communism only rarely produced leading-edge products. A vigourous marketplace with developers competing to build the best product, always looking to improve and enhance is what drives progress.

People say things like: "We don't need another sequencer." Well no we don't. But would you deny someone with talent the opportunity to build one ? And what if it was a real intuitive leap, something that none of the complacent "big companies" ever thought of ? Well, suddenly you have another sequencer that is simply better. The dinosaurs die, the brilliant newcomer flourishes.

Of course you're under no obligation to either try or buy the product.

But it is human nature to want to try it - especially if it is an "advance".

So the point of this rave is basically that if you want innovation and a dynamic development environment then "too many" products is almost inevitable.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:19 pm

J9K - that's a compliment!

You're doing things other guys have said were impossible. Keep it up man!

sandrob · Post by **sandrob** » Sun Jun 30, 2002 3:33 pm

On 2002-06-28 23:47, Nestor wrote:
So, I would like for you to consider that there are people like me, living in a quite poor country spending about 20 American dollars ***a week*** to eat, earning average wages of 200 American dollars per month…

same here! 200-250€ per month.
i must work whole month on the radio to buy some plug-in!
but, i also have studio so i have some money to eat

i mean: i don't eat money

Nestor · Post by **Nestor** » Sun Jun 30, 2002 8:21 pm

You would have a great indigestion if you were to…

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 8:11 am

The major part of our industry still is controlled and dictated by "Avid". There are countless examples of Nuendo users being refused to work on a project because they don´t have "Protools". Sometimes it seems almost impossible to compete whith people from that area. And mentioning one has spend a lot of money to a DSP card which carries the name "Creamware", makes no difference at all, because the customer just doesn´t care. But it could make a difference, right? If we (Creamware users) had some major companies on our side that are well known in "Digi-world" or "VST-world" it would make a difference IMO.

I´m not saying our platform lacks some quality, because that just isn´t the case!

And as long as there are categorial gaps to fill like "Tape simulators" or "Linear phase EQs" or all the analog "Vintage colorators/manipulators" that do exist, we as users should never stop demanding what could be ours! At least we should be given the choice to decide what "arsenal" one wants to use...

Regards,
Bernhard

Ben Walker · Post by **Ben Walker** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 9:23 am

On 2002-06-28 17:29, Spirit wrote:
... In the development field I'm really interested in the ModV3. Is there going to be one ? As I said earlier it could be completely dead for all anyone knows.

Rest assured, there will definitely be an upgrade to the Modular.
I don't have dates, but I do have proof !

_________________
<a href="http://www.modularsynth.co.uk" target="_blank">www.ModularSynth.co.uk</a>

[ This Message was edited by: Ben Walker on 2002-07-01 10:24 ]

jupiter8 · Post by **jupiter8** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 11:50 am

Come on.
Tell us.

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Mon Jul 01, 2002 12:51 pm

now that's some news I've been waiting for.

Anyway, a little something about Avid. The company makes video editing machines. And then, I think they bought digidesign to use the digidesign audio interface for their editing machine packages. Then, Microsoft acquired Avid a while back. So I guess monopolizers tend to attract each other?? That's as far as I know. Maybe I'm wrong.

But anyway, the protools monopoly I think, is slowly decreasing because there are many more home/bedroom studio musicians than ever before, whether it be with VST's or any DSP card, it's just not that same for Digidesign anymore. I've spoken with many engineer/mixers (in Japan) that say that more and more of their clients are bringing in material that are pre-made and mixed on a home system, and protools is only used as a vocal recording system, so as to take advantage of the studio acoustics, but not Protools. Things could be different for a band but as far as digital musicians are concerned, this seems to be the general trend. Maybe creamware isn't the top batter in the league, but it's one heck of a movement that's happening. Protools is the ruler of compatibility, but the sheer diversity of setup is slowly breaking it.

That said, it's our duty as users to come up with ideas that our great developers might have missed, and to use what we have to its fullest potential in order to get proper recognition. And make music that evolves so fast... that big, obese companies can't catch up to our lightweight, dexterous team of developers!

[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-07-01 13:52 ]