We all put alot of money on this creamware cards and most of us knows that this cards are something really good.
I want to contact 3'rd party companies about start develop plugins for creamware's products.
im thinking about write a letter to them with signature of each user here that we want them to develop for us as they develop for tdm and vst and all the others!!!
we have cards that can handle lots of things why do we use just few plugins.
WHAT DO U THINK GUYS?????
3rd party plugins
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Rob van Berkel
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King of Snake
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Maybe it would be better to start harassing CW in order to get them to negotiate a bit more forcefully with 3rd parties.
HELLO CREAMWARE! ANY NEWS?!
I think it's about time we got to hear something about the real future of the platform: 3rd party development, new DSP technology, maybe something about the hardware prices?
HELLO CREAMWARE! ANY NEWS?!
I think it's about time we got to hear something about the real future of the platform: 3rd party development, new DSP technology, maybe something about the hardware prices?
hi adim,On 2002-06-27 01:44, adim wrote:
well i thought about some companies like : waves, native instruments and more ....
you won't convince Motorola coders to do it on SHARCs.
The 'native' in the name is their driving force (if I remember that interview right).
They won't compromise their main products by a better sounding DSP version.
Or does anyone expect less ? In that case we can order it already in the next shop.
So, keep on thinking how many of those big names don't do their own hardware or are firmely associated with ProTools ?
I'd rather support the quality stuff already available on this platform and do a great production with it than constantly wasting time looking for 'big names'.
A quality 3rd party developement is absolutely necessairy to keep the platform going, but imho the biggest chance Scope offers is generally neglected.
A talented newcomer group could achieve big success at very moderate costs, but instead there's a constant complaint about prices.
Nothing against your enthusiasm, but check out limits of realisation as well - theere are several - software is business as well.
cheers, Tom
CW have a link on their site showing third-party developers but it's a sham. There used to be 23 listed, last week there were 19, and today there is 14. Out of those 14 only two are active: Zarg and Sonic Timeworks. The rest do not make anything for CW products nor do their websites reveal any plan, or even any mention of Creamware. Zarg is looking for people to code their devices as VSTi and Sonic Timeworks warn that their products don't work with SFP3.X.
Have a look and check out these so-called "third party developers". Perhaps all these companies have been secretly working away for the past two years, so I can't say CW's claim is a lie, perhaps just "misleading" is better.
http://www.creamware.de/en/Links/3rd_party/default.asp
My favourite example is from when DSPdev released their new Analogy synth: I asked DSPdev if the oscillators could be made a ModV2 module. Their reply was that they'd love to release it but that "Creamware won't let us".
What has CW to say about this ?
Nothing of course. They never comment on this subject.
And where is Creamware taking us? I've tried to get an answer to this many times on forums and in emails accompanied by polite suggestions.
But Creamware don't answer questions like that either.
More frightening might be that they just don't know.
Have a look and check out these so-called "third party developers". Perhaps all these companies have been secretly working away for the past two years, so I can't say CW's claim is a lie, perhaps just "misleading" is better.
http://www.creamware.de/en/Links/3rd_party/default.asp
My favourite example is from when DSPdev released their new Analogy synth: I asked DSPdev if the oscillators could be made a ModV2 module. Their reply was that they'd love to release it but that "Creamware won't let us".
What has CW to say about this ?
Nothing of course. They never comment on this subject.
And where is Creamware taking us? I've tried to get an answer to this many times on forums and in emails accompanied by polite suggestions.
But Creamware don't answer questions like that either.
More frightening might be that they just don't know.
I would be a developer for the Creamware platform right now, but one of the main reasons I'm not is Spirit and everyone who complains about not having "big" 3rd party names. Whats the point of spending all your time working on synths, effects, algorythms, only to find "$30 is a bit too much" and "there are no 'big name' third party developers"? The two do not go hand in hand, welcome to Reality.
And the constant complaining/whining about this only turns off more potential developers.
That said, I'd buy "WAVES for Pulsar" immediately, and would give serious thought to a ~$400 Quantec plugin for our SHARC platform...
And the constant complaining/whining about this only turns off more potential developers.
That said, I'd buy "WAVES for Pulsar" immediately, and would give serious thought to a ~$400 Quantec plugin for our SHARC platform...
Attempting to blame the user is extremely poor sport.
I commented on CW's misleading list of "third-party developers". It is misleading.
I commented on CW refusing to allow a developer to release a ModV2 device. Fact.
I nowhere talked about US$30 as "too much".
My post did not mention the need for "big names".
If a little robust comment deters you from developing then perhaps your motivation is not very strong in the first place. Other small developers do so through love of this platform, as a small-earnings sideline, or just as a hobby, and a few comments by myself and others about the strategic situation of Creamware isn't going to change that !
And if every slightly negative comment is going to be immediately attacked as "whining" then we'll never see an honest debate here again.
I commented on CW's misleading list of "third-party developers". It is misleading.
I commented on CW refusing to allow a developer to release a ModV2 device. Fact.
I nowhere talked about US$30 as "too much".
My post did not mention the need for "big names".
If a little robust comment deters you from developing then perhaps your motivation is not very strong in the first place. Other small developers do so through love of this platform, as a small-earnings sideline, or just as a hobby, and a few comments by myself and others about the strategic situation of Creamware isn't going to change that !
And if every slightly negative comment is going to be immediately attacked as "whining" then we'll never see an honest debate here again.
3rd party reverb: EarlyFirst, Timeworks, DSPDev ...
3rd party Compressors: Level Devil, Orbitone, DSPDev, TimeWorks ...
Guitar Amp modelers: Celmo, Ingo.
FX: Neutron, Orbitone, Celmo, J9K, etc.
What exactly do you want? I have been reading these 3rd party development threads for years, always the same conversation. I'm not saying it's you Spirit who complains about prices, but it's the general attitude that there should be some big third party companies who develop devices for very cheap.
I guess I see many quality third party developers here already, even without a "big" name (although I really do believe many of these so-called "small name" developers easily compete with some of the highend products by "big name" guys), and I am wondering what the problem is? Would having a Lexicon reverb available for the platform, even if it didn't sound better, than, for example, the newest high end EarlyFirst reverb or TimeWorks reverb make everyone happy? This platform has(had..) something that no other platform had: the ability to quickly put together circuits without much(or in many cases ANY) need to know programming. Sound designers could design circuits in a GUI and create devices...
So what exactly is it we are missing here? My main point is if its just a "big name" attached to a device, maybe you should have bought ProTools and paid ProPrices for them?
Sony works with SHARC development, and us users have asked them to consider out platform. They responded, saying that they would look into it, and that their team was busy with other projects at the moment...
Other companies pay large amounts of money to developers JUST so they develop on their platform, and then, many times after being paid to develop the plugins for the platform, the companies share little or no profit from the plugins with the company... should Creamware raise prices across the board to offset the cost of paying some "big name" to develop a plugin for the platform?
I'm just tired of reading the same thread reincarnated with the same Single Point of View. There is Reality out there, and making plugins must be economically viable for all parties involved... or the developer must be passionate about the platform and have a generous heart.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2002-06-27 10:11 ]</font>
3rd party Compressors: Level Devil, Orbitone, DSPDev, TimeWorks ...
Guitar Amp modelers: Celmo, Ingo.
FX: Neutron, Orbitone, Celmo, J9K, etc.
What exactly do you want? I have been reading these 3rd party development threads for years, always the same conversation. I'm not saying it's you Spirit who complains about prices, but it's the general attitude that there should be some big third party companies who develop devices for very cheap.
I guess I see many quality third party developers here already, even without a "big" name (although I really do believe many of these so-called "small name" developers easily compete with some of the highend products by "big name" guys), and I am wondering what the problem is? Would having a Lexicon reverb available for the platform, even if it didn't sound better, than, for example, the newest high end EarlyFirst reverb or TimeWorks reverb make everyone happy? This platform has(had..) something that no other platform had: the ability to quickly put together circuits without much(or in many cases ANY) need to know programming. Sound designers could design circuits in a GUI and create devices...
So what exactly is it we are missing here? My main point is if its just a "big name" attached to a device, maybe you should have bought ProTools and paid ProPrices for them?
Sony works with SHARC development, and us users have asked them to consider out platform. They responded, saying that they would look into it, and that their team was busy with other projects at the moment...
Other companies pay large amounts of money to developers JUST so they develop on their platform, and then, many times after being paid to develop the plugins for the platform, the companies share little or no profit from the plugins with the company... should Creamware raise prices across the board to offset the cost of paying some "big name" to develop a plugin for the platform?
I'm just tired of reading the same thread reincarnated with the same Single Point of View. There is Reality out there, and making plugins must be economically viable for all parties involved... or the developer must be passionate about the platform and have a generous heart.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2002-06-27 10:11 ]</font>
And Spirit, if your point is that companies listed here...
http://www.creamware.de/en/Links/3rd_party/default.asp
... don't have any products for sale for the platform, and that they should be removed if they aren't ever going to do something, then, I'd have to say "YES I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU" and even mention that I've emailed every one of the companies on that list about a year ago, and some companies DO have some intention of developing when they finish other things... I emailed my findings to Creamware, too.
Let's go through the list:
<B>Best Service</b>: Don't they have some of their sounds bundled with Pulsars and the free Volkzsampler CD? I thought that's how they fit in.
<b>C-MEX</b>: They make some software to get more out of mixers like Yamaha DSP Factory, 02r, 03d. They HAVE been on this list for awhile, and I wonder why? Would be curious to know the relation here.
<b>FXpansion</b>: FXpansion still has their plugins for sale, so they are definitely a 3rd party developer. I doubt we'll see any more CW plugins from them, but you never know... they are Native wizards and that seems to be their specialty. I bet it makes them more $$.
<b>Metric Halo</b>: I have no idea what this has to do with Creamware. Anyone care to enlighten us?
<b>NemeSys</b>: Also not sure why they are listed; Creamware does have gigasampler drivers, so maybe that's part of it. Not sure they develop devices or have plans to? (Hmm licensed disk streaming technology would be neat
).
<b>Orbitone</b>: These guys rock. Buy their stuff so they make more
<b>ProSoniQ</b>: I would love to see some of this stuff on our DSPs, in fact this seems to be my personal #1 choice. They were involved with the new and coming Neuron synth (www.hartmann-music.com) ... and make some killer VST plugins (Pi-Warp DSP version anyone?!!
)
<b>Quantec</b>: When I emailed them over a year ago, they still had plans to create a DSP version of their reverb. Hopefully they didn't hear the EarlyFirst or Timeworks reverbs in the meantime and change their minds?
Hmm..
<b>Radikal</b>: I think they have built-in Creamware support with their SAC2k controller.
<b>SPL</b>: Attacker and Transient Designer plugins. I would love to see more SPL development actually.
<b>waldorf</b>: Waldorf Wavetable Oscillators for modular and incorporated into other synths. We more than likely won't be seeing more from them as their engineers are very busy and they strongly prefer development on Motorola.
<b>Zarg</b>: Excellent top notch plugins. I need to buy the Sequential pack at some point...
<b>Zplane</b>: High end slightly esoteric device for larger multi speaker installations...
So with a few exceptions, I think most of these companies have SOME relationship with Creamware. I would love to see more, especially from ProSoniq or Quantec, but since it's been so long since we've heard anything new from Quantec (and since I've heard the other 3rd party reverbs), I would be skeptical they would develop.
So yeah - any companies who promised more than 2 years ago to do something and haven't yet, should probably come off that list, what do you think Spirit? Creamware?
And maybe other developers who make absolutely top notch devices should be added... earlyFirst, Celmo and Neutron to name 3 more to replace those that are 'idle.'
Thoughts?
http://www.creamware.de/en/Links/3rd_party/default.asp
... don't have any products for sale for the platform, and that they should be removed if they aren't ever going to do something, then, I'd have to say "YES I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU" and even mention that I've emailed every one of the companies on that list about a year ago, and some companies DO have some intention of developing when they finish other things... I emailed my findings to Creamware, too.
Let's go through the list:
<B>Best Service</b>: Don't they have some of their sounds bundled with Pulsars and the free Volkzsampler CD? I thought that's how they fit in.
<b>C-MEX</b>: They make some software to get more out of mixers like Yamaha DSP Factory, 02r, 03d. They HAVE been on this list for awhile, and I wonder why? Would be curious to know the relation here.
<b>FXpansion</b>: FXpansion still has their plugins for sale, so they are definitely a 3rd party developer. I doubt we'll see any more CW plugins from them, but you never know... they are Native wizards and that seems to be their specialty. I bet it makes them more $$.
<b>Metric Halo</b>: I have no idea what this has to do with Creamware. Anyone care to enlighten us?
<b>NemeSys</b>: Also not sure why they are listed; Creamware does have gigasampler drivers, so maybe that's part of it. Not sure they develop devices or have plans to? (Hmm licensed disk streaming technology would be neat
).<b>Orbitone</b>: These guys rock. Buy their stuff so they make more
<b>ProSoniQ</b>: I would love to see some of this stuff on our DSPs, in fact this seems to be my personal #1 choice. They were involved with the new and coming Neuron synth (www.hartmann-music.com) ... and make some killer VST plugins (Pi-Warp DSP version anyone?!!
)<b>Quantec</b>: When I emailed them over a year ago, they still had plans to create a DSP version of their reverb. Hopefully they didn't hear the EarlyFirst or Timeworks reverbs in the meantime and change their minds?
Hmm..<b>Radikal</b>: I think they have built-in Creamware support with their SAC2k controller.
<b>SPL</b>: Attacker and Transient Designer plugins. I would love to see more SPL development actually.
<b>waldorf</b>: Waldorf Wavetable Oscillators for modular and incorporated into other synths. We more than likely won't be seeing more from them as their engineers are very busy and they strongly prefer development on Motorola.
<b>Zarg</b>: Excellent top notch plugins. I need to buy the Sequential pack at some point...
<b>Zplane</b>: High end slightly esoteric device for larger multi speaker installations...
So with a few exceptions, I think most of these companies have SOME relationship with Creamware. I would love to see more, especially from ProSoniq or Quantec, but since it's been so long since we've heard anything new from Quantec (and since I've heard the other 3rd party reverbs), I would be skeptical they would develop.
So yeah - any companies who promised more than 2 years ago to do something and haven't yet, should probably come off that list, what do you think Spirit? Creamware?
And maybe other developers who make absolutely top notch devices should be added... earlyFirst, Celmo and Neutron to name 3 more to replace those that are 'idle.'
Thoughts?
<i>I commented on CW refusing to allow a developer to release a ModV2 device. Fact. </i>
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... &forum=9&3
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... &forum=9&3
Re: DSP Dev "not being allowed" maybe you missed this thread:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 1&forum=11
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 1&forum=11
The question of third-party development is not merely about whether we need another reverb or what big name is associated with the platform, or even how much you can charge. It is a much deeper issue which effects the confidence and psyche of users.
A continual stream of third-party devices does two things:
1) It give users confidence in the future and the assurance that both end-users and the commercial world believes in the platform
2) It gives users choice and flexability
One of the reasons people (like me) want to know where CW is going is because they and they alone are in the driver's seat. Bland statements by CW that they are going to "release more devices and fix bugs" tell us nothing.
We're all sitting in the back seat and the driver ain't sayin' nuthin'.
And since CW say nothing about the future, or even hint at new devices (unlike most other companies) the future is completely dark. You can't predict anything, there is nowhere else to turn. This is not going to make your user base feel comfortable - especially when it is a proprietary system.
For example, is there going to be a Modular-3 ? Who knows. It could be about to be released; or maybe it's already been killed off. Do you just sit there and hope for the best thinking "maybe this year" while systems such as Reaktor power ahead with NI even announcing *PLANS* for that system?
If CW is going to be silent on that issue then the silence is total. Nothing else will happen.
But imagine that there were six developers all making devices for the Modular. THEY would be announcing plans and development would be going ahead regardless of Creamware's inscrutible silence. Suddenly the Modular is alive, there would be no question marks over the future. You would say: "Will CW release a ModV3 ? Who cares! Look at Waldorf's four new modules!"
Combined with this is Creamware's very limited capacity. If, for example, they concentrate on vintage effects for a while then it may be months or a year or even more before we see a ModV3. And in that case when will the samplers ever get updated ? What if yu were waiting for that instead ?
Without third-party development these issues become even more important.
So IMHO the combination of no substantial third-party development and corporate silence from Creamware is the worst possible combination.
I believe that's the essence of the "third party question" and until it's addressed by Creamware in some manner it will continue to come up.
And it is not whining - it's anxiety.
A continual stream of third-party devices does two things:
1) It give users confidence in the future and the assurance that both end-users and the commercial world believes in the platform
2) It gives users choice and flexability
One of the reasons people (like me) want to know where CW is going is because they and they alone are in the driver's seat. Bland statements by CW that they are going to "release more devices and fix bugs" tell us nothing.
We're all sitting in the back seat and the driver ain't sayin' nuthin'.
And since CW say nothing about the future, or even hint at new devices (unlike most other companies) the future is completely dark. You can't predict anything, there is nowhere else to turn. This is not going to make your user base feel comfortable - especially when it is a proprietary system.
For example, is there going to be a Modular-3 ? Who knows. It could be about to be released; or maybe it's already been killed off. Do you just sit there and hope for the best thinking "maybe this year" while systems such as Reaktor power ahead with NI even announcing *PLANS* for that system?
If CW is going to be silent on that issue then the silence is total. Nothing else will happen.
But imagine that there were six developers all making devices for the Modular. THEY would be announcing plans and development would be going ahead regardless of Creamware's inscrutible silence. Suddenly the Modular is alive, there would be no question marks over the future. You would say: "Will CW release a ModV3 ? Who cares! Look at Waldorf's four new modules!"
Combined with this is Creamware's very limited capacity. If, for example, they concentrate on vintage effects for a while then it may be months or a year or even more before we see a ModV3. And in that case when will the samplers ever get updated ? What if yu were waiting for that instead ?
Without third-party development these issues become even more important.
So IMHO the combination of no substantial third-party development and corporate silence from Creamware is the worst possible combination.
I believe that's the essence of the "third party question" and until it's addressed by Creamware in some manner it will continue to come up.
And it is not whining - it's anxiety.
I guess I don't fully understand the anxiety then. I have SCOPE/SP, PowerPulsar, Pulsar1, and 2 A16 Ultras. This is not an insignificant investment - I've still got large portions of this on my VISA card. And I'm not worried at all about Creamware's future... if they did nothing else, my system would still do what it does today. Why the anxiety? Is it that you aren't confident in your decision to go with a Creamware setup, or that you expected something else?
With at a handful of devices released every month from these "nonexistant 3rd party developers" (go check the devices area:
<li> J9K Modular2 modules - <li> SF's free BlueSynth - <li> Nuetron Feedback - <li> Celmo Pro Delay - <li> SF's HyperFrog Amp - <li> Pro Audio Tester - <li> Final Liza multiband finalizer (free!) - <li> J9K Envelope - <li> Neutron Joy2Midi - <li> Reverb Tester - <li> Neutron Micro3.)
And that's just this month. See why I'm a little confused? Maybe not...
And I'm not worried at all about Creamware's future... if they did nothing else, my system would still do what it does today. Why the anxiety? Is it that you aren't confident in your decision to go with a Creamware setup, or that you expected something else? With at a handful of devices released every month from these "nonexistant 3rd party developers" (go check the devices area:
<li> J9K Modular2 modules - <li> SF's free BlueSynth - <li> Nuetron Feedback - <li> Celmo Pro Delay - <li> SF's HyperFrog Amp - <li> Pro Audio Tester - <li> Final Liza multiband finalizer (free!) - <li> J9K Envelope - <li> Neutron Joy2Midi - <li> Reverb Tester - <li> Neutron Micro3.)
And that's just this month. See why I'm a little confused? Maybe not...
pulsar give us all drivers what we need.
indirectly: ni, waves, nemesys, tc and other "big names" already make devices for pulsar.
i don't need giga, kontakt, battery, b4 or waves in sfp. but cw give me posibilites to use everything with pulsar together. also i can use another card with pulsar together and i will use uad-1.
but for short time if cw drop prices for dsp and if they include "pro" devices in basic configuration (with board) i'm sure that i will buy another pulsar board(s)!
vinco, masterverb pro, early firsts sounds better than (m)any "big names".
yes, what's the point of heaving "big names" in sfp?!?
indirectly: ni, waves, nemesys, tc and other "big names" already make devices for pulsar.
i don't need giga, kontakt, battery, b4 or waves in sfp. but cw give me posibilites to use everything with pulsar together. also i can use another card with pulsar together and i will use uad-1.
but for short time if cw drop prices for dsp and if they include "pro" devices in basic configuration (with board) i'm sure that i will buy another pulsar board(s)!
vinco, masterverb pro, early firsts sounds better than (m)any "big names".
yes, what's the point of heaving "big names" in sfp?!?
Could resist to comment
This is like a bad recurring nightmare.
I remember 5 years ago, when 3DAT still ruled the CW universe and everyone was moaning and groaning about the lack of 3rd party plug-ins (and Direct X support) for 3DAT. All that whining led absolutely no where. And then, of course, CW got bored with 3DAT, dumped it, and went on to develop Scope/Pulsar.
So here we are, another 5 years down the road, different platform, and people are still complaining about the same damn thing. Some things never change
This is like a bad recurring nightmare.
I remember 5 years ago, when 3DAT still ruled the CW universe and everyone was moaning and groaning about the lack of 3rd party plug-ins (and Direct X support) for 3DAT. All that whining led absolutely no where. And then, of course, CW got bored with 3DAT, dumped it, and went on to develop Scope/Pulsar.
So here we are, another 5 years down the road, different platform, and people are still complaining about the same damn thing. Some things never change
A shame. Hopefully SFP will have a better outcome than 3DAT.
And yes Subhuman, there have been a lot of good releases lately. And an exceptional one from SpaceF today !
Perhaps I am looking to third-party development as an antidote to the silence of CW.
I believe my ModV2/V3 arguement is a good example.
And in case there is any doubt, I have always maintained that this board is the best bit of kit I've ever bought (from maybe 40 or 50 synths & samplers). I haven't changed that opinion.
And yes Subhuman, there have been a lot of good releases lately. And an exceptional one from SpaceF today !
Perhaps I am looking to third-party development as an antidote to the silence of CW.
I believe my ModV2/V3 arguement is a good example.
And in case there is any doubt, I have always maintained that this board is the best bit of kit I've ever bought (from maybe 40 or 50 synths & samplers). I haven't changed that opinion.