New to Scope, getting an old card soon (6DSP)

[Bud Weiser]

Even Karl Steinberg wrote a multiclient driver for non multiclient devices (not that I use it) so it's a mark against Scope in my view.

The Steini ASIO multiclient driver crackles,- I already tested it 2 years ago w/ SCOPE 4, Reaper 3 and Phead Reason 4 which never worked satisfying.

Up to now, there isn´t any working ASIO multiclient driver I´m aware of.
Would be great to have one though.

Bud

[emotive]

as you can see, multi-client is defined on the card level, and that's how the term is generally used
WDM devices are by default 'multiclient', as they act conceptually independant with a sufficient time frame for each pair
high performance stuff like Asio is different

So effectively, there can only be one ASIO application on a given card at a time but even Scope does not work this way?

[astroman]

yes, Asio was designed at a time when a 300 MHZ CPU was considered high end...
they were happy to get one application going correctly and for a 2nd one there wouldn't even be resources...
it's as Bud also writes:
noone is aware of any working Asio driver that has channels distributed over app boundary
(which would be pointless anyway as Windoze isn't realtime at all)

Scope works exactly THAT way because you can use it's Asio driver with any app of choice at one time
Just not 2 apps in parallel.
If people use Cubase with Asio, they set Wavelab for WDM (for example), works fine

Scope (SFP) itself is mainly a control software for a piece of hardware inside the computer

it's a digital mixer, audio processor and synth generator with variable setup (defined in projects)
this thing communicates with external hardware via the card connectors like Adat, analog IO etc.
and it communicates with other software through so called drivers: Asio, WDM, GSIF etc
(the various types are for efficiency so ther driver doesn't loose time in detecting the audio format)
Asio16 and Asio-2-24bit are exactly the same software module, but vary in the 'start location', so to say...

the card itself (any version) has a processing delay of 1-4 samples (dunno exactly)
anything you feed it on one side, comes out in (practicalls) realtime on the other

latency is only introduced by the host part, which is Windoze or MacOS9 (no OSX)
if you measure software latency one time, you can setup any mixture of signals perfectly time aligned
(probably better than any hardware available - it's a damn smart system)

it's worth getting familiar with the signal flow and it's timing background
may take a small extra effort, as you usually don't have access to that kind of detail on any other system
(which means you are in perfect control - if you want)
you can also use it right out of the box, the result is always at least on par with the best native systems.
but you could tweak Scope a bit further beyond that point, if you're ambitious

cheers, Tom

[emotive]

Scope (SFP) itself is mainly a control software for a piece of hardware inside the computer

As garyb says, it's as if the DAW is inside Scope in that the inputs and outputs (both audio and MIDI) of Cubase are routed through scope as a conceptual model. If this is correct then this is what I need but can I still use UAD and TC powercore "inside" cubase?

it's a digital mixer, audio processor and synth generator with variable setup (defined in projects) this thing communicates with external hardware via the card connectors like Adat, analog IO etc. and it communicates with other software through so called drivers: Asio, WDM, GSIF etc (the various types are for efficiency so ther driver doesn't loose time in detecting the audio format) Asio16 and Asio-2-24bit are exactly the same software module, but vary in the 'start location', so to say...

the card itself (any version) has a processing delay of 1-4 samples (dunno exactly)anything you feed it on one side, comes out in (practicalls) realtime on the other latency is only introduced by the host part, which is Windoze or MacOS9 (no OSX)
if you measure software latency one time, you can setup any mixture of signals perfectly time aligned (probably better than any hardware available - it's a damn smart system)

Latency is probably not a major concern for me, as I only intend to program MIDI, any recording may well be to rendered audio from software instruments.

it's worth getting familiar with the signal flow and it's timing background
may take a small extra effort, as you usually don't have access to that kind of detail on any other system (which means you are in perfect control - if you want)

I am certainly trying to get my head around it all, but when I get my card, first thing I'll do is install XP and try 4.0, since as you said elsewhere, little difference but it's what will come with the hardware I believe. I've got Cubase Studio 5 discs (and v7 for later )

Thank you

[astroman]

yes, no problem to use Powercore and UAD as usual
(I've had my Powercore in SAW's fx-slots as well)

you can continue to use Cubase just as before.
in some cases you may add some delays (or tell Cubase) to adjust realtime inputs like analog or Adat. It's not a big deal, at low latency values it may not even be required at all.
(just for precision sake - you could do it sample accurate if you're after it)

the point when things may start to get a little more complicated is when you discover that you can do things in Scope, that are impossible elsewhere
people often end up re-configuring their setup accordingly

that is to do almost all audio processing on the Scope side and have Cubase as one big tape recorder behind it.
You loose faster than realtime mixdowns (rendering) anyway, as Scope is always realtime.
On the other hand you always hear exactly the final results on your monitors
(no more render-check cycles)

but that's easier to tell (for yourself) with some hands- on experience on the card.

cheers, Tom

[garyb]

while it might be handy once in a while, in reality NO ONE needs true multiclient ASIO drivers. they really don't. is it about audio or about computer specs?

[emotive]

while it might be handy once in a while, in reality NO ONE needs true multiclient ASIO drivers. they really don't. is it about audio or about computer specs?

I would like a DAW running on one set of outputs to program MIDI and another to play an E-drumkit, but it's not possible under ASIO anyway, so I will probably do something along the lines of what Astroman is saying about bringing digital audio back in somehow from another card (don't particularly want more than one computer on if not needed, e.g. power bill).

I don't believe there is an issue of running more than one sound device that has an ASIO driver on one computer but of course I could only deal with it in scope as audio, which in reality might be better.

Cheers

[Bud Weiser]

while it might be handy once in a while, in reality NO ONE needs true multiclient ASIO drivers. they really don't. is it about audio or about computer specs?

Never say "no one needs" ...

There´s a scenario I´d love to have a working multiclient ASIO driver for:

Running SCOPE/XITE on a 32Bit machine w/ XP SP3 32Bit,- 4GB RAM (!!!)
SCOPE ASIO Source device w/ 4 or more input channels connected to SCOPE mixer.
Running a VST host and a handfull of VSTis incl. NI Kontakt,- 2 main outputs from host to SCOPE ASIO Source device at least.
Running Phead Reason as a separate application (not rewired into the VST host) to separate inputs of the SCOPE ASIO Source device and connected to separate inputs of SCOPE mixer.

Result:

1.)
Better usage of the overall 4GB of RAM because there are the OS and TWO applications running.

When you use the VST host, Kontakt plugin and Reason rewired,- the VST host is the only application and there´s the RAM limit of 3GB,- 1GB unused.

2.)
Phead Reason audio doesn´t pass thru the VST host.

There´s more when you´re satisfied w/ your hardware keys/modules and SCOPE synths but want NI Kontakt as your main sample player plus some specials from Reason.
Ditching VST host completely and running Kontakt standalone as also Reason frees more RAM for both.

ASIO multiclient driver would be extremely welcome for me,- but unfortunately it doesn´t exist up to now.

Workaround:
I never tried that,- but what about 2 ASIO drivers on the same machine,- one for SCOPE and the other for a RME card p.ex.?
Can 2 different ASIO drivers exist and work simultaneously on the machine, each one for a different card ?

Bud

[garyb]

while it might be handy once in a while, in reality NO ONE needs true multiclient ASIO drivers. they really don't. is it about audio or about computer specs?

I would like a DAW running on one set of outputs to program MIDI and another to play an E-drumkit, but it's not possible under ASIO anyway, so I will probably do something along the lines of what Astroman is saying about bringing digital audio back in somehow from another card (don't particularly want more than one computer on if not needed, e.g. power bill).

I don't believe there is an issue of running more than one sound device that has an ASIO driver on one computer but of course I could only deal with it in scope as audio, which in reality might be better.

Cheers

this can easily be done in one app. Scope allows up to 64 channels of ASIO.

[garyb]

I never tried that,- but what about 2 ASIO drivers on the same machine,- one for SCOPE and the other for a RME card p.ex.?
Can 2 different ASIO drivers exist and work simultaneously on the machine, each one for a different card ?

Bud

yeah, that should work. freezing a track and/or actually commiting to audio would be an easier solution though.

[emotive]

this can easily be done in one app. Scope allows up to 64 channels of ASIO.

Thanks gary b but maybe I am not making myself clear.

I don't want to use only a single instance of Cubase to play and program at the same time, I want to switch (literally as in myself) from one program to the other because I only want to play the Edrums and not have them interfere with what I am writing.

Hope that makes sense.

[garyb]

no, but it's your computer.

everything has it's limits. soon you'll need two computers...

[emotive]

everything has it's limits. soon you'll need two computers...

Which is the point of a multi-client (ASIO) driver but as Astroman said it is a limitation of ASIO in that more than one application cannot be supported at one time.

I am using a Roland UA-1G interface and can have system sounds occurring via the same physical output as the ASIO stream of a DAW program, previously this was not possible in operating systems that do not support WASAPI/MMCSS so it follows that technically it should be able to happen in the future.

[garyb]

again, i have been able to do that with Scope for almost 20 years.

[Sounddesigner]

this can easily be done in one app. Scope allows up to 64 channels of ASIO.

Thanks gary b but maybe I am not making myself clear.

I don't want to use only a single instance of Cubase to play and program at the same time, I want to switch (literally as in myself) from one program to the other because I only want to play the Edrums and not have them interfere with what I am writing.

Hope that makes sense.

What's wrong with using WDM drivers with one instance of Cubase and Asio with the other instance? I don't understand the problem of using both drivers if the DAW supports both WDM and Asio. You can use SCOPE alone this way.


EDITED

[emotive]

What's wrong with using WDM drivers with one instance of Cubase and Asio with the other instance? I don't understand the problem of using both drivers if the DAW supports both WDM and Asio.

Maybe that is what I will do if you mean the ASIO Multimedia driver since the programming is mainly mouse driven anyway.

With the ASIO guard technology Steinberg have developed, maybe there can be a multi-client driver of sorts at some point in the future.

[emotive]

again, i have been able to do that with Scope for almost 20 years.

You would be talking about using multiple outputs would you not, or mixing in scope WDM/ASIO, this is not really what I was talking about in the beginning as Astroman was keenly aware of.

[garyb]

you wrote:

I am using a Roland UA-1G interface and can have system sounds occurring via the same physical output as the ASIO stream of a DAW program, previously this was not possible in operating systems that do not support WASAPI/MMCSS so it follows that technically it should be able to happen in the future.

this IS mixing WDM and ASIO drivers. that's how Roland does it. system sounds don't run on ASIO drivers.

i have had all sounds available on the same output at the same time for almost 20 years. i can change that routing if i wish..

[astroman]

Asio is only needed for (near) realtime tracking with fx monitored live
for EVERYTHING else Cubase does automatic latency compensation...
so you could run 4 instances of the application each on a multimedia stereo pair
without the need for any Asio at all
no need for low latency either (with mouse programming), seriously
you won't even notice if the first note is played at position 120 or 220 ms on the timeline
everything after that very first note is perfectly aligned by the sequencer

cheers, Tom

[emotive]

Thanks Astroman.

To date I've been using a laptop for the E-drums, but would not mind them happening on the one machine with my main DAW for programming.

I guess I'll do what you've suggested in the long run and just route audio back to Scope, as this seems the only solution and is not bad insofar as using Scope is concerned, i.e. using 2 separate ASIO drivers (all in the digital domain right up to my BMC-2).

The problem comes when I want to plug in a MIDI keyboard for my programming, which is when I need ASIO, which I've always used regardless of what I was doing but it seems there might be another way....

@ gary

You're talking about using WDM & ASIO together in scope, no; otherwise I'm not understanding?

I'll try using WDM for programming MIDI (I did this years ago when learning via onboard sound with ancient cubase versions) and shut down the edrum app (likely VST Host) as necessary since I probably don't play enough anyway but it still seems inconvenient so I guess I'll just go with what Astroman suggests because as I understand Scope is the equivalent of a hardware mixer and can mix 1x ASIO app outs (multi-output) providing near realtime signal processing which is kind of what I lacked with UAD (could not be bothered actually to set up a reverb).

With that said, I don't believe I will need to route the audio from the 2nd soundcard via cubase, as this is what I want most to avoid and just use the Scope environment but alas I guess I am beginning to understand