Using SCOPE with CopperLAN

[ehasting]

Hello,

I just tested out using CopperLan after my Motu 828mk2 showed terrible midi preformance.
My setup is an iMac running Reaper (just changed from Logic), and a dedicated Scope computer.

I was building some easy modular patches and tried to trigger them with midi over the motu, but it was dropping out.
Then i installed CopperLAN on both computers and where able to do it all over ethernet (and with perfect result).

Adding a screenshot over the "setup"



Anyone tested similar?

[Bud Weiser]

Hello,

I just tested out using CopperLan ...
I was building some easy modular patches and tried to trigger them with midi over the motu, but it was dropping out.
Then i installed CopperLAN on both computers and where able to do it all over ethernet (and with perfect result).


Anyone tested similar?

That´s cool !
Didn´t know it´s free, so just downloaded and will install soon.
Most interesting, Copperlan recognizes any MIDI interface (USB /physical MIDI) connected to the computer(s).

Are you using a special or better network cable (CAT5 or such) or a simple standard RJ45 one ?
I´d like to have 1 cable between both machines and MIDI running bi-directional (w/ Copperlan installed on both machines?).
Is that the way how it works ?
I have Reaper here too b.t.w.

Another question ...

Are you using a network router ?
My main DAW is connected to the internet because of all the update/authorisation/activation s**t,- and I have no chance to activate the 2nd network connector on my mainboard because I´d run into IRQ conflicts then.
So, I´d need a solution to have both the networkcables connected, the one for the internet and the other to connect 2 machines for MIDI.

best

Bud

[ehasting]

I am using not particular good cables but cat5, and they are both connected on the regular network through a switch. So the router is in the network aswell, But not on the same switch. If you want to ensure quality, connect the two on a dedicated switch. Having Internet and copperlan sharing interface is no problem... Just turn off BitTorrent :p

You can run in both direction. And also expose the midi interface directly in the copperlan like I did with scope. It's rather impressive and works like a charm!


And it does makes sense to use Ethernet since it easily can operate in a local network with 0,1ms latency on cheap consumer hardware!

Ps! Copperlan sends active sensing which I filter away In scope!

Been testing it for 6 hours in stretch! Rock stabile and responsive!

[Bud Weiser]

I am using not particular good cables but cat5, and they are both connected on the regular network through a switch. So the router is in the network aswell, But not on the same switch. If you want to ensure quality, connect the two on a dedicated switch. Having Internet and copperlan sharing interface is no problem... Just turn off BitTorrent :p

O.k., thanks for advice.
So, I have to buy a CAT 5 cable and a network switch, right ?
No Bit Torrent here anyway.

You can run in both direction. And also expose the midi interface directly in the copperlan like I did with scope. It's rather impressive and works like a charm!


And it does makes sense to use Ethernet since it easily can operate in a local network with 0,1ms latency on cheap consumer hardware!

Ps! Copperlan sends active sensing which I filter away In scope!

Been testing it for 6 hours in stretch! Rock stabile and responsive!

Well all that sounds very good to me.
I´m investigating in hardware boxes offering ethernet and physical MIDI ports for my external hardware instruments, than ditching all the 19" 8x8 MIDI interfaces sooner or later.
Only box I know is KISS Box.

You probably know any others ?
Only one distributor in germany for KISS box,- so it´s expensive for a ethernet port and 2 MIDI I/Os.

Did you try Reaper w/ OSC, Copperlan and a touch screen controller ?

best

Bud

[ehasting]

Well.. just try to use your router, and check the performance! it all depends on your regular usage of the network. The network technology today are cheap and rather good (including the cheapest home routers). I am working with video conference and are sometimes running 6mbit conferences using regular network gear.. and it preform the same as our enterprise grade network equipment at the office. So i would expect it to work flawless with your home router, but if you want to be sure a dedicated switch between the two systems then that switch connected to the home router should give you a direct path not affected by the other traffic in the network.

i havent tested the kiss boxe... but
you can use copperLan as those kiss boxes.. just hock your 8x8 towards an old computer or your second computer., then publish the ports over copperLan and you will have 8x8 available ports over ethernet .

I am having 3x3 midi interface on my scope card, and if i then connect 3 x midi sequencer interface inside scope routing directly to the physical ports, then publish them in copperLan i could be using the scope midi interface as a remote interface for controlling additional synths. I think it would be great to get copperLan support directly into Scope 6, and as fare as i know it will happend (according to this post: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater ).

I do have the Lemur software on my iPad, which i want to integrate into my scope setup when i have the mixer setup ready, but i havnt tried it with reaper yet.

[jksuperstar]

Bud, Most routers these days are switches. a switch knows what addresses are plugged into which ports, so when a packet for the internet comes in, it gets sent to the outside world, and when a packet for another local machine (like from copperlan) comes in, it gets routed quickly to the appropriate port.

I wouldn't worry about having 2 ports, with one dedicated to MIDI, ad another for the internet. The OS will still have to route the ethernet data to the right port anyway, so there's that level of overhead. Plus, if you're not using the internet, and disable a few other things, you won't have any problems anyway (I get keeping one port clean, so it doesn't get any latency affects).

I have mentioned it before, but you can use a program called "Alacrity PC". It works with XP thru win7. You get to configure it, and it will kill any running programs or services you tell it to. It even gives whatever info it can about that process to help you. Then you can set up profiles to minimize anything that might touch the network, such as windows explorer (which periodically checks for printers, other computers, etc), unused network services, java updater, etc. On my laptop, I disable all the media button services, etc. It can really make a huge difference when trying to run really low latencies. And the beauty is that you can still "keep" the non-audio stuff, without uninstalling, rebooting, or anything else.

[djmicron]

i use it to communicate with two older pc's equipped with scope pci cards, both controlled over remote desktop.
It works fine.
I suggest not to use a router, because it can be slower if it is designed for the internet.
I suggest to use a switch(a gigabit switch if your ethernet cards are gigabit capable).
Then if your internet connection is managed by a router, connect it to the same switch and then assign to all computers connected to the network a static ip in the same domain of the ones used by the router so they will have the internet available without loosing the gigabit bandwidth.
In this way, every device connected with the switch, will be able to communicate straight with each other device at full speed.

[Bud Weiser]

i use it to communicate with two older pc's equipped with scope pci cards, both controlled over remote desktop.
It works fine.
I suggest not to use a router, because it can be slower if it is designed for the internet.
I suggest to use a switch(a gigabit switch if your ethernet cards are gigabit capable).
Then if your internet connection is managed by a router, connect it to the same switch and then assign to all computers connected to the network a static ip in the same domain of the ones used by the router so they will have the internet available without loosing the gigabit bandwidth.
In this way, every device connected with the switch, will be able to communicate straight with each other device at full speed.

ehasting, jksuperstar and djmicron ...

thank you for all your tips and advice !!!
I´m a network idiot up to now,- but now is clear how to do it.
And no, my DAWs aren´t connected to the internet always,- just only for NI and Phead updates and activation and for the automatic updates WinXP SP3 needs.
I activate internet connection and services as well as firewall & antivirus manually and de-activate when this s**t is done.
All my machines OS is "Black Viper" tweaked.
No office stuff on the DAW machines,- there´s a separate office machine connected to the router my internet provider delivered and I do all downloads of samples etc. w/ the office machine.
I´ll go the route w/ the gigabyte switch and connect it to the router.

thx again

Bud

[Copperhead]

For those interested in connecting their MIDI hardware equipment by CopperLan network, the company Alyseum makes such products.
There are two versions, both with an Ethernet connector.
- The small AL-22 is a two-in / two out box.
- The 1" rack AL-88 offers 8 ins / 8 outs

Any MIDI channel presented at any input (physical/virtual) can be:
- sent independently to any destination, be it an application in a MAC/PC, a MIDI interface attached to a computer or another AL-22/88
- remapped as another MIDI channel
- merged with any number of other flows arriving at the same destination

The system allows any number of MIDI clocks (as long as you don't send more than one to the same target - that's a MIDI limitation!)

A snapshot system takes care of saving all settings from AL22/88 interfaces and computers for later restore.

For the more adventurous (soldering required!), there is also a module version called AleX that you can build inside your MIDI devices.
This module adds the CopperLan network functionality without losing the use of the existing MIDI ports.

[dawman]

A new member with great product links.
I really like the Alex, so off I go to read. I have a hardware mod guy here in town finally, he can fix or create anything.

Thanks and Welcome to the Z...

[ehasting]

Great links! the 2x2 was in a decent price range aswell!

[Bud Weiser]

For those interested in connecting their MIDI hardware equipment by CopperLan network, the company Alyseum makes such products.

Wow !!!!!
That´s what I need w/ XITE-1 (and SCOPE 6 later) !
Thank you, excellent find,- the 8x8 is bang for the buck being a bit more expensive (incl. VAT, taxes and shipping) than a KISS Box 2x2 is.
Alex and MS-812 eurorack are very promising too.

Bud

[yayajohn]

For the more adventurous (soldering required!), there is also a module version called AleX that you can build inside your MIDI devices.
This module adds the CopperLan network functionality without losing the use of the existing MIDI ports.

This would be great for my aging Unitor8 and AMT8. Doubtful though.

[Copperhead]

For the more adventurous (soldering required!), there is also a module version called AleX that you can build inside your MIDI devices.
This module adds the CopperLan network functionality without losing the use of the existing MIDI ports.

This would be great for my aging Unitor8 and AMT8. Doubtful though.

The concept is to put such module into each piece of MIDI equipment. It fits products with one MIDI in and up to two MIDI outs.
The intent is to get rid of MIDI cables entirely. Your customized equipment will use Ethernet cables.
So it won't help when you have 8 in/out connector pairs on a Unitor or similar.

[HUROLURA]

AL88 is a kind of Copperlan AMT8 but slightly more expansive though.

AMT8 "equivalent" gears USB 8x8 Midi interfaces like ESI M8U or Motu Midi Express 128 are more in the 200€ price range...
A Midi Class compliant USB/Copperlan bridge could make sense to give a second life to such devices.

[Bud Weiser]

AL88 is a kind of Copperlan AMT8 but slightly more expansive though.

AMT8 "equivalent" gears USB 8x8 Midi interfaces like ESI M8U or Motu Midi Express 128 are more in the 200€ price range...
A Midi Class compliant USB/Copperlan bridge could make sense to give a second life to such devices.

The point is, when we´ll all go 64Bits next future and we will sooner or later IMO,- all these old serial/LPT and USB port MIDI interfaces,- 8x8 or not, need 64Bit drivers which will never come.

So, any Alyseum hardware is very welcome in conjunction w/ Copperlan.

According to the Alyseum AleX module,- it might be not so easy to attach it to every (vintage) MIDI keyboard and module(s) in rack(s) because you need the room inside the keyboards and MIDI modules as well as the cutouts on the rear of their cases.
I doubt we´re able or be willing to mod every of our vintage dinos that way,- but some.

The AL-88, for me is the solution, having lots of modules in racks being connected to Sycologic MIDI matrix switchers and running a multicore to the actually to the computer connected 8x8 MIDI interface.
In this case, it´s easy to replace the interface by the AL-88 and keep the MIDI cables as they are in the racks,- at least for the time being and as long as all the hardware modules are in use and not been sold.

With a Unitor 8 mk II or AMT, you need Logic running and set up a MIDI environment,- w/ Alyseum and Copperlan Manager,- MIDI merging and re-channelizing is already done in the manager and without any VST/AU host.
That´s big improvement for me.

I hope, Copperlan Manager will be improved for all the jobs MIDI processors like Miditemp´s do,- transpose, map controllers, MIDI data filtering, splits & layers incl. velocity processing, volume and controller offsets and MIDI Prg.-Changes,- all by dedicated MIDI channel and on every recognized port in the system and stores all this into a preset in a list like a song- or set-list where you recall each patch by just only one MIDI Prg.-Change command from a masterkeyboard.
That would be really killer w/ MIDI over LAN which also enables long cable runs similar to MIDI over MADI.

Bud

[HUROLURA]

My iMac is already 64 bits.
And the AMT8 works perfectly with it.
No dedicated software but not really necessary ... as long as you have a Win XP 32 at the other end of the AMT chain.
I have to check if there is Linux support software for it.

By the way one of the interesting feature about the AMT8 is also the standalone use. Once configured, you do not need any computer to use it: just power on and that's it.

And regarding the configuration software, a smart guy reverse engineered the AMT8 USB protocol and designed a 64bit version of the old Unitor control software.

I do ont mean the AL88 is not providing smart new features. And price is in the same range as the more advanced Motu Midi express XT. Adding a standalone mode to the AL88 unit would be cool ... And being able to store its configuration directly inside a Scope project would be really something more ...

[yayajohn]

For the more adventurous (soldering required!), there is also a module version called AleX that you can build inside your MIDI devices.
This module adds the CopperLan network functionality without losing the use of the existing MIDI ports.

This would be great for my aging Unitor8 and AMT8. Doubtful though.

The concept is to put such module into each piece of MIDI equipment. It fits products with one MIDI in and up to two MIDI outs.
The intent is to get rid of MIDI cables entirely. Your customized equipment will use Ethernet cables.
So it won't help when you have 8 in/out connector pairs on a Unitor or similar.

ok I see how that works now.

[yayajohn]

My iMac is already 64 bits.
And the AMT8 works perfectly with it.
No dedicated software but not really necessary ... as long as you have a Win XP 32 at the other end of the AMT chain.
I have to check if there is Linux support software for it.

By the way one of the interesting feature about the AMT8 is also the standalone use. Once configured, you do not need any computer to use it: just power on and that's it.

And regarding the configuration software, a smart guy reverse engineered the AMT8 USB protocol and designed a 64bit version of the old Unitor control software.

I do ont mean the AL88 is not providing smart new features. And price is in the same range as the more advanced Motu Midi express XT. Adding a standalone mode to the AL88 unit would be cool ... And being able to store its configuration directly inside a Scope project would be really something more ...

Well the AL88 would be nice to have no doubt. Curious about that 64bit Unitor control software, do you have a link maybe?

[Copperhead]

I do ont mean the AL88 is not providing smart new features. And price is in the same range as the more advanced Motu Midi express XT. Adding a standalone mode to the AL88 unit would be cool ... And being able to store its configuration directly inside a Scope project would be really something more ...

The AL-88 works in standalone; its current setup can be stored, and comes back when powering up.
A computer is only needed to change those settings.
So you can configure one (or more) as a remapping/merging/matrix unit in a computer-less setup.