How good is the quality of Creamwares´ A/D and D/A units

helldriver · Post by **helldriver** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 7:56 am

I want to know this because I heart that
A/D units form digidesign are much better than Creamwares´.
If somebody is interested in discussing this topic please be objective about quality of A/D and D/A units.
Greets
Stefan

[ This Message was edited by: helldriver on 2002-04-22 08:57 ]

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:47 am

Hello,
I´m a Nuendo/Samplitude users and am present at those forums and newsgroups regulary (forum name: Sunshine_Music). I don´t have the A16 myself, but I heard some statements from Nuendo users that do have RME, Apogee and other converters as well. After trying the A16 they claimed that it has a descent sound, whith slight coloration.

The A16 uses an AKM 4524 converter, this converter is the same one you will find in midiman or aardvark converters. It might not be on the same level with the RME, which uses higher end AKM converter for the AD but, if you need 16 ins and outs the A16 is a very good choice...

But, most converters do use the same or similar IP from AKM or Crystal. Although they do make a difference in soundquality, since the digital filters are on that chip, the real quality of the sound comes from the analog part....

What scares me more when I look at Creamware converters is that CW has made no statements about the jitter specs and other things. Unfortunately, a lot of things do determine the quality of the converters, and can't be ignored. So what we need is a real "spec sheet" that describes the outcome of all that quality care. Just stating "24bits, 96k" doesn't state a thing about the actual accuracy of the converted signal. Many of the manufacturers use the same (Crystal) converter IC's in their gear, so the PC board quality that distinguishes their products is a fairly small percentage of the overall quality. So to create a niche in the market, it is more important for them to state a price point, and then write ad copy to justify it. A lot also has to do whith a philosophy a company has, and if the converter was build by themselves.
Specs are just specs, but they can answer some questions. (If they tell the truth)

Regards,
Sunshine

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 8:58 am

man, you are kind of funny!
take a product that is 3 times more expensive to compare.

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:12 am

BTW,
I´ve seen so many statements in the net that claimed one converter sounded better than the other, that it would be ridiculous to make a decision based on those statements. Some people do state that EGO sys sounds better than RME or Lucid sounds better than Apogee or the Lucid smokes the Cranesong converter. What I want to express by that, is that comparing converters is also a very subjective thing and depends on personal taste and the style of music of course. For classical recordings one would probably prefer more neutral and transparent converters (un-colored), for rock music sligh coloration of the converters do bring things to life, and so on.... Some people like smooth converters, some people prefer very dynamic converters, which has something to do whith the rise time... For mastering you will often find converters like Cranesong, because they are build transformer-less, which means they have minimum coloration. Expensive converters do tend to have a big bottom-end and a crisp shiny upper-end whith detailed mids and lows and a nice stereo-image, which is a result of the channel separation. So once again having good specs is one part that determines the quality of a converter.

Regards,
Sunshine

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:28 am

DXL,

I was typing as you posted right behind me.
As far as I know CW´s A16 does cost more than the RME Adi-8 pro. I know of course, that you get 16 A/D D/A for the price, which is really a good deal! And I can tell you the RME D/A converters are not accurate and don´t sound right to my ears. So if the A16 has good D/A converters (for monitoring or an analog mixer) it has something ahead of RME. After puchasing the RME converters myself I was forced to buy some other D/A converters for monitoring....

Regards,
Sunshine

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:36 am

Just to clarify Sunshine, were you speaking about the new "A16 Ultra" or the older 18bit (but still nice) A16?

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 9:45 am

Hi subhumen,

I was talking about the new converters.
In germany they do cost 1190 euro (www. thomann.de), where as the RME Adi-8 costs 1090 euro. As the the A16 was introduced the first time by Creamware (about 8 month ago) the price was at 2550 DM (1303 euro).

Regards,
Sunshine

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:17 am

BTW,

When comparing the colour of the sound converters do have. Some Nuendo users said the "A16" was right between the "Apogee AD8000" and the "RME ADI-8". Interesting, isn´t it?

But refering to the original question, whether the digidesign converters do sound better or not.... I think one will find statements in the future, that will go in both directions....

Regards,
Sunshine

[ This Message was edited by: Sunshine on 2002-04-22 12:19 ]

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 11:37 am

I guess that makes the A16 Ultra one of the best deals around since it has twice as many channels for around the same price? (Assuming you find that statement on the converter quality accurate...)

[ This Message was edited by: subhuman on 2002-04-22 12:41 ]

Sunshine · Post by **Sunshine** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 12:53 pm

Normally, I don´t make any statements on gear I haven´t worked whith, but I have noticed a certain insecurity in this forum because nobody has ever made an objective comparison to other units. I think that nuendo users do know quite a few things. Although they sometimes collectively do share the wrong opinion on certain subjects. But when someone has a "AD8000" and chooses the "A16" as his second converter, he does that because there can´t be such a huge difference. Folks do oftentimes overestimate the quality of the AD8000. Anyway converters don´t make the real difference in the end. All those converters do stand very close too each other (quality wise). When you A/B/C/D them you won´t find real differences, since they all give you a very acceptable result. They all have different flavors, which appeals different tastes, and that leads to different opinions.... So yes, I also "think" that Creamware´s "A16" is the best deal right now. But my opinion is as well based on things I´ve heard from other users, I have never auditioned the A16 myself.

What we will see in the near future is no big quality improvement, since it is very hard to improve the analog part and very difficult to improve the converter chip. Right now when you look at the Adi-8 (for example), the true dynamic range is 112 db (@44,1 khz) which gives you a bit depth of 18,7-bit. (1-bit = 6db). So if those converters would carry their signal through older 20-bit adat connections, there would be no quality difference at all. Also quite interesting...

Regards,
Sunshine

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 2:09 pm

oh i never say ultra A16 isn't good
you don't like RME's fine i feel nothing.
yes, from the Ulta A16's feature, it's not expensive at all.

but not much people uses it, the comentary here will always be "creamware is good"
but get one and try it or wait till some one make a detailed review.
will computer music or future music do so?

On 2002-04-22 10:28, Sunshine wrote:
DXL,

I was typing as you posted right behind me.
As far as I know CW´s A16 does cost more than the RME Adi-8 pro. I know of course, that you get 16 A/D D/A for the price, which is really a good deal! And I can tell you the RME D/A converters are not accurate and don´t sound right to my ears. So if the A16 has good D/A converters (for monitoring or an analog mixer) it has something ahead of RME. After puchasing the RME converters myself I was forced to buy some other D/A converters for monitoring....

Regards,
Sunshine

helldriver · Post by **helldriver** » Mon Apr 22, 2002 5:07 pm

And what´s about the quality of Pulsar2 converters?
Are those converters the same as in
an A16 unit?